The Arab World Takes a Hard Look at Itself

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

Iran was most definately a case of US control, though, as US forces (under the command of Stormin' Norman's father) landed in Iran and reinstalled the Shah.


edit: Re BD's comment: Uhm, well, Iran has Arabs in it, yeah, that's the ticket.

Soviet forces were sitting in Northern Iran. The US was concerned that increasing agitation by Soviet sponsored political parties heralded a coup that would be quikly reinforced by those troops. The government in Iran then seemed unable to cope with the threat. Records made available by the democratic government of Russia in the past decade confirm that the Soviet Union planned to stage a coup in Iran and add it to their collection of puppet states. If that had happened the Iranian people would have fared far worse than they did under the Shah. Ask a Pole, a Czech or a Hungarian.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
China would crush them.

China would ally with them.

[Ned]

Clearly it is high time we supported true democracy in the region. The move against Arafat is a massive step in the right direction.

[Alexander's Horse]

One of the most interesting observations was the description of muslim fundamentalism as a form of fascism.

[Tingkai]

With regards to Asia, a lot depends on when you take the snapshot.

Take a picture in 1975 and things don't look so great.

Even today, the picture isn't so great. Truly democratic governments only exist in Taiwan, South Korea and Japan. Economic growth is rather fragile (HK now has 7.7 per cent unemployment and major economic structural problems).

Economically, East Asia benefited from massive investment that came from Japan and the US.

American investment into the Middle East is limited by regular cycles of anti-American sentiment.

The oil revenues may also have been a curse in disguise. As long as a country can reap money from oil, there is less incentive to develop other areas. Countries that lack natural resources are forced to be more creative. That happened in Singapore.

The countries in East Asia have also witnessed the devestation of war at a level that far exceeded the Arab world. That has created a disincentive towards the use of violence to solve international problems. the Arabs haven't learned that lesson yet.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
China would crush them.

So would USA & EU or aleast both of these powers have larger populations and Per Capita Incomes. BTW the communist Chinesed out numbered US forces 15 to 1 in korea and they still couldn't beat them.

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by Tingkai
The oil revenues may also have been a curse in disguise. As long as a country can reap money from oil, there is less incentive to develop other areas. Countries that lack natural resources are forced to be more creative.

Good point. A few oil refineries and petrochemical plants aside, Middle East does generally look like an extractive economy. Combine that with the political / social situation and I wonder if you have something that looks like the colonial Spanish in the Americas.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
China would ally with them.

Doubtful, given her own problems with Muslim fundamentalism.

[Imran Siddiqui]

They have allied with Pakistan though.

[Roland]

Well most non-oil arab states are in the 2000-5000 $ range for GDP/capita. That's not much, but still better than subsaharan Africa and about the same as the poorer latin american states.

What those regions have in common would be interesting. The first thing coming to mind is lack of institutions. Working courts, banks, universities, media....

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
They have allied with Pakistan though.

Because of India.

[DanS]

You would think that a country like Egypt could do better for itself. Only 1/3rd of women and less than 2/3rds of men are literate, which would seem to make any democratic institutions anemic. As I stated above, this is not so in Jordan, which shows the variability among Arabs.

I wonder what the literacy rates were for the US 200 years ago.

[orange]

just slightly greater than they are today

[Dinner]

India & Thailand are both fully functioning democracies. Plus Malasia, Sigapore, Indonesia, & Mongolia are at least populist states with democratic pretensions which is more then I can say for any Arab state. The closest is Egypt but it is really just another Arab "strong man" state where we are supposed to believe the big Kahuna gets reelected by 98% of the vote each time each time for 20 years.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by DanS
I wonder what the literacy rates were for the US 200 years ago.

The first public schools opened in New England in the 1680's. Being good Protestants they wanted to teach everyone to read the bible for themselves.