Why does history say the Maginot line was a failure?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
IIRC, the belgians didn't build their part of the Maginot becuase they trusted the Dutch, who in turn had threatened to flood their country if Germany invaded.

Well, the blitzkrieg took the Dutch by suprise, so they never had the opportunity to open the floodgates...

No that isn't true. The Dutch flooded but the Germans didn't come that way.

The Maginot line was incomplete in 1940. Would it have made a difference? Probably not.

[CyberGnu]

you sure? The point was to flood the lowlands so that the german army would be mired in the mud...

[orange]

they didn't go through Holland to get to France. They went through Belgium.

They took Amsterdam before invading France, and it didn't take them long either.

[Dinner]

As I recall the Dutch had a series of fortresses along the German border however the Nazis used a surprise airborne invasion thus doing an end room around the forts.

Still if the forts weren't there then the Germans would have just rolled over them with tanks so at least they forced the Germans to fight on both land and air.

[TheBirdMan]

e. we should all thank God faded glory is not Defence Minister.

Agree. Faded Glory should be President! Then all conflicts could be solved through a decent CallToPower MP game.

And Solver+Ming could be members of the government. They always keep an eye on Faded.

OMG - what am I writing?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
you sure? The point was to flood the lowlands so that the german army would be mired in the mud...

That's what they thought maybe but actually the German attack on Northern Belgium and Holland was merely a feint designed to draw the Franch and British armies defending Northern France as far into Belgium as possible. The main thrust was through the Ardennes and involved a drive not on Paris but straight for the channel ports to close the trap. Holland was only attacked because the Germans thought an attack on Belgium alone would not draw the allied forces out of position enough for the attack to work. In the event, it worked brilliantly.

This map shows it well (if it will cooperate). The shadow arrow is what the allies thought they were countering - basically a repeat of the 1914 Schlieffen plan. The white arrow is what the germans were actually did.

This map also shows just how useless the Maginot line was.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Oerdin
As I recall the Dutch had a series of fortresses along the German border however the Nazis used a surprise airborne invasion thus doing an end room around the forts.

Still if the forts weren't there then the Germans would have just rolled over them with tanks so at least they forced the Germans to fight on both land and air.

That fighting didn't matter a damn - see my map. In fact the longer the Dutch and Belgians held out in the North, the better it was for the Germans in trapping the French and British who were coming to their aid.

Learn from the master

[Dinner]

I didn't say it mattered. I just said it happened. Still me thinks it helped Dutch pride.

[Alexander's Horse]

You can see from the map what a brilliant plan it was though.

Where the Maginot line really screwed the French was they refused to abandon it after the German breakthrough. Instead of falling back on Paris as they had done in World War I, their idiot generals pretty much gave the germans a free run to Paris and kept most of their army in a meaningless defence of Alsace Lorraine.

I don't know where faded glory gets this idea of heavy fighting to "take" the maginot line. The Germans did test out their artillery and such on it but apart from that they just cordoned it off and most of the French army, considerd the best in Europe at the time, pretty much surrendered without firing more than a few shots in anger.

[notyoueither]

All true from the Horse, except...

A majority of the French mechanised force was commited to the advance into Belgium, as well as all of the BEF.

When the Germans struck through the Ardennes and broke out at Sedan, they quickly split the best of the Allied forces from their lines of communication and supply. That, combined with a painfully slow reaction to the German thrust (the French command never gained a solid grasp of the situation) led to the destruction of the only well equipped forces to face the panzers almost by defualt.

[CyberGnu]

Ahhh

*taking hat off for Horse*

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse

Where the Maginot line really screwed the French was they refused to abandon it after the German breakthrough. Instead of falling back on Paris as they had done in World War I, their idiot generals pretty much gave the germans a free run to Paris and kept most of their army in a meaningless defence of Alsace Lorraine.

Problem there was that after the breach of their lines they would have been unable to mount an effective withdrawl/counterattack. As you already pointed out their armour was dispersed and couldn't have been reformed in time to stop the fall of Paris.
Whether or not they could/should have reformed and later made an attempt to cut the German lines in turn though - disregarding their capital - is another question entirely...

I don't know where faded glory gets this idea of heavy fighting to "take" the maginot line. The Germans did test out their artillery and such on it but apart from that they just cordoned it off and most of the French army, considerd the best in Europe at the time, pretty much surrendered without firing more than a few shots in anger.

Analysing German records after the war indeed made it quite clear that the "attack" on the line was nothing more than a feint. Certainly any indication of "heavy losses" to the German forces is a gross exaggeration.

(f) I wonder if FG is the reincarnated French Defense minister - circa 1940

[Deathwalker]

The fact is the Germans went round it. Thats why most people belive that static defence is not worth it. Even Napoleon said the side that stays in it's own walls will be defeted

[CyberGnu]

Except when you play WarCraft. Is there any other way to defeat the AI hordes?

[Chris 62]

Why do they say it was a failure?

Army group "C" penitrated it in two days during phase II of the battle of France.

The whole project was a waste.

In fact, the problem was simple, the line was not designed as a barrier, but a stop point, which means it was intended to slow an attack, and for local reserves to couterattack and stop a break-through.
Even the French knew an impervious line was immpossible.