Summoning Ethelred. . . About Genesis

[Jack the Bodiless]

It wasn't a story until after the resurrection. And you really haven't addressed the question: Again, how do you propose the rumours started in the absence of an actual resurrection, especially in the place where it happened? How were these rumours sustained in the absence of facts?

BTW, most great teachers died. Moses and the prophets, David and the good kings of Judah, the disciples and the apostles. In other Jewish sects, similarly great teachers died without a resurrection mythos. Look at many, if not most, of the other religions of the world. Their teachers die.

But they didn't die like Jesus did. Jesus died young, and he died in disgrace. Divine religious leaders are supposed to either die of old age after a lifetime of achievements, or ascend bodily into Heaven. This looks like an attempt to change the ending.

Especially as the alternative ending is placed suspiciously soon after the crucifixion: "Jesus died, but it was OK because he came back to life and ascended into Heaven, The End". Little more than a month separated the two events.

How did the rumors of Elvis being alive get started? Maybe somebody saw a guy who looked like Jesus, and wishful thinking did the rest.

[ckweb]

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
But they didn't die like Jesus did. Jesus died young, and he died in disgrace. Divine religious leaders are supposed to either die of old age after a lifetime of achievements, or ascend bodily into Heaven. This looks like an attempt to change the ending.

Especially as the alternative ending is placed suspiciously soon after the crucifixion: "Jesus died, but it was OK because he came back to life and ascended into Heaven, The End". Little more than a month separated the two events.

Well, I have three responses:

(1) So, you are suggesting the disciples knew that Jesus had not risen from the dead. Then, why did they die as martyrs? It is one thing to die for something you believe in but didn't actually see; it's quite another to die for something you know you made up. The former happens; the latter rarely, if ever, happens.

(2) A month is still alot of time. Why not have him ascend at the crucifixion, like the Gnostics believe? Or, why not posit a merely spiritual resurrection rather than a bodily one? Either way, you have not accounted for how the disciples came to believe in a bodily resurrection if none occurred.

(3) Jesus was not the only spiritual leader to die early and die an ignominious death. In the OT, we have the example of Josiah. Also, many of the would-be messiahs before and after the time of Jesus died young and suffered ignominious deaths. In fact, some were even crucified too. So, again, what makes Jesus special?

Originally posted by Jack the Bodiless
How did the rumors of Elvis being alive get started? Maybe somebody saw a guy who looked like Jesus, and wishful thinking did the rest.

There are several problems here. First, Elvis' death was not a public event except insofar as it was reported by the media. Jesus died in plain view of the people. Elvis died in a private residence, hence the development of rumours that he did not die. Second, the rumours surrounding Elvis are that he never died not that he was resurrected. The difference is huge. Third, the Elvis rumours never spawned a new religious movement, martyrs and all, who challenged the religious and political authorities. Fourth, the Elvis rumours have never achieved any real penetration and have not been perceived as credible by the society-at-large. Quite clearly, the opposite is true in the case of Jesus. The rumours of Jesus' resurrection penetrated society at their very source (in Jerusalem) and expanded outward throughout the Roman Empire and even into regions beyond such as India and parts of Africa outside the Roman controlled areas. It is certainly true that people at the time of Jesus were ignorant of science but that does not mean they were idiots! The Jesus movement gained an enormous amount of credibility and expanded very quickly. I can see no adequate explanation for this phenomenon short of an actual resurrection. An actual resurrection explains the change in the disciples, the appeal of the new religion to people with beliefs in many respects antithetical to the central claims of the new religion, its expansion through the Roman world and beyond, the enormous amount of literature written about a previously insignificant individual, the martyrs dying in the same century as the events they believe in happened, etc. etc.