China's One Child Policy............

[mindseye]

All Dan S. and company are arguing for is the use of proven capitalist methods (...)

Tax incentives are not proven capitalist methods?

for increasing the value of labor by improving the efficiency of that labor, which translates into higher salaries and less population growth

I do not believe this is true at all for China.

When I first arrived, I puzzled over things like men tearing down buildings with sledgehammers while large, modern crawler-backhoes sat idle nearby. Then I began to understand that it was better to employ thirty inefficient peasants with sledgehammers for one week than employ a single backhoe operator for one day. You would not believe the battalions of clerks you can encounter in stores. It is not unusual for clerks to outnumber customers.

Raising the efficiency of labor is not a good idea in a country already suffering from a chronic oversupply of labor. Idle workers are already causing enormous social unrest in the northeast, the last thing the CCP wants is to add to their numbers.

but it won't be able to evolve into a society which is thriving politically, artistically or economically until the shadow of the communist party is permanently eradicated by the light of freedom.

Amen.

[chrono353]

I think it was a good call for the communists. Population was a problem. Although Mao eradicated 25 million, that didnt even dent the problem. This one child policy has worked so far. But its still a problem. Considering the wages are p!ss poor in China and there screwed up economics at the moments. They should shed off a few hundred million more before they can really become productive and thrive. Right now, there is a huge labor pool looking for somthing to do. I read that china dumped 10 million state workers 6 months ago from inefficient state industries that cost more to keep running with subsidies, then they make selling products. Its a good idea, there moving towards western economics now.

one child is good policy for the next 20 years.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Sava
Personally, I think it is society's duty to decide who can have children or not. There are many people having children who shouldn't be.

I just wonder who is going to decide in the name of society? Wouldn't it be a variation of fascism?

Any forced birth control is in fact a variation of fascism, like it or not. I'm mentioning this solely with the terminological purpose. It's not my intention to kill the discussion by bringing up an overall negative cliche. Then, the question is whether in certain circumstances society has no other choice but going fascist. It might well be so...

[Transcend]

Originally posted by Adam Smith
Wo3 hui4 shuo yi4dia3nr Zhongguo2 hua4.
Been there twice, and hope to go again.
Done this too, both in English and in my halting Chinese.
Quite possibly. But any policy which results in thousands of infant girls abandoned each year surely has great room for improvement.

You are the only exception.

[Adam Smith]

Originally posted by mindseye
Okay, do you have any suggestions for a better policy?

Paying more attention to women's rights, including a right to inherit, would probably be a good start. Basic reforms in this area (eg., binding of feet) were part of the Communist program in the 40's. I realize some changes would not be easy, as they runs counter to 4000 years of Chinese culture.

[Sava]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


I just wonder who is going to decide in the name of society? Wouldn't it be a variation of fascism?

Any forced birth control is in fact a variation of fascism, like it or not. I'm mentioning this solely with the terminological purpose. It's not my intention to kill the discussion by bringing up an overall negative cliche. Then, the question is whether in certain circumstances society has no other choice but going fascist. It might well be so...

Things aren't black and white. You must find a balance in between. It would be a variation of an idea that fascists share.

[Ecthy]

Wait guys... 8 months... that child was able to live. They actually ABORTED that?

I still can't believe it. Must be 8 weeks. IT would not only be sick but rather perverted.

[David Floyd]

The difference between a few isolated cases of forced abortions and Falun Gong is that the latter is seen as a direct threat to the continued rule of the Party. The former is just another example of small-scale corruption and abuse that one can encounter anywhere in China (especially in the countryside), and as such gets little attention from higher-ups, who have their hands full with other problems and priorities (which can range from the welfare of the public to lining their pockets).

That's pretty sick, that China would consider a non-traditional religious group is more of a problem than forced abortions and sterilizations. That might tell us something right there.

And little accountability/oversight is really no excuse. The central government knows it goes on, and if they really cared, they might step in and create some oversight and accountability.

Again, I really think that they just don't care.

[mindseye]

Any forced birth control is in fact a variation of fascism, like it or not.

Huh? Are you talking about state-sanction forced abortions? Cuz we're not.

That's pretty sick, that China would consider a non-traditional religious group is more of a problem than forced abortions and sterilizations.

Please don't tell me you are so naive as to consider Falun Gong "an alternative religious group". You need to vary your news services! Besides, Falun Gong is unquestionably a far greater problem than a few forced abortions - at least from the viewpoint of the party leadership, which is who we are talking about here, right?

The central government knows it goes on, and if they really cared, they might step in and create some oversight and accountability.

Oh, sure maybe a few officials got reprimanded or something, but through the eyes of the Chinese leadership, a few forced abortions somewhere out in the countryside is simply not a problem that even registers on the radar screen. Seriously, if you spent a little time acquainting yourself with the problems facing China, you would gain a better perspective on the true scale of the matter. It won't excuse it, but it will put it in a more accurate perspective.

As for "creating oversight and accountability", well, that would require changes so fundamental that attempts at that kind of reform can only be made for problems viewed as truly serious and large-scale, where there is no alternative (e.g. banking reform).

[DanS]

"You are the only exception."



You might as well retract your silly comments.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by mindseye
The difference between a few isolated cases of forced abortions and Falun Gong is that the latter is seen as a direct threat to the continued rule of the Party.

Could you explain to me what it is about the Falun Gong that poses such a "clear and present" danger to the continued rule of the CCP? To hear you tell it, they pose a danger to the CCP not seen since the days of Tiananmen.

I know Chinese government have a history of not really caring about the lives of thier citizens but to ignore such horrific abuses, regardless of how rarely they occur, in order to attempt to extinguish the odd religious movement whenever it strikes thier fancy is odd to say the least.

[mindseye]

To hear you tell it, they pose a danger to the CCP not seen since the days of Tiananmen.

I would agree with that characterization - is this a serious question? I will to treat it as such, but I thought this was obvious.

Okay, officially, the FG's worst problem is probably the philosophy of eschewing medical care, which has alledgedly resulted in deaths. Promoting suicide and wacky beliefs about walking through walls, contacting aliens, enriching a kook hiding out in the US - all these things further the gov't view of FG as a bogus cult that the people should be "protected from".

But the real danger is FG's ability to organize on a scale that has clearly shocked the party leadership. The final straw was when approximately 10,000 FG adherants unexpectedly showed up one morning outside the leadership's domestic compound. The party was apparently freaked out that this level of organization could take place with such efficiency and secrecy. Further investigations revealed that not only was FG much larger than they thought, but membership included party and military members of unnervingly high ranks.

An organization of this scale and efficiency, acting completely outside the party's control, taking orders from a leader of dubious sympathies hiding out in the US, was cleary way, way over the top. Bear in mind that no organization of any size exists here without Party involvement, if not outright control. With increasing unrest in the northeast, the northwest, and other rural pockets, the party was simply not willing to tolerate a potential adversary of this size and nature, so it re-acted in a not unexpected manner - it moved to eradicate the potential foe.

FG has subsequently played right into the gov't hands with the orchestrated suicides in Tainanmen, tapping into cable tv to broadcast propoganda, children dieing from lack of health care, etc. It looks to me that FG has lost whatever sympathy it may have had, I have yet to meet a single Chinese who doesn't think it is a crazy cult that should be eliminated.

I know Chinese government have a history of not really caring about the lives of thier citizens

I give the current leadership credit for caring about Chinese lives quite a bit more than its predecessors (not a difficult feat, granted). In fact, you can even find some admirable characters such as influential #2 leader Zhu Rongji (a big favorite with the public). Hopefully the upcoming leadership change late this year will improve things at the top further.

but to ignore such horrific abuses, regardless of how rarely they occur, in order to attempt to extinguish the odd religious movement whenever it strikes thier fancy is odd to say the least.

I have to admit I don't understand this. What is the trade-off ("in order to") between the FG crackdown and a few incidents of abuse by family planning officials?

Also, you are applying your American values to a Chinese problem, which is distorting your perspective. What you call "horrific abuses" does not even register on the scale here, especially in light of what's viewed here as a very successful program.

As I mentioned before, Chinese in general place a higher value on social stability than westerners do, probably as a result of more recently and more keenly tasting the results of social breakdown. For example, I have met educated, kind, level-headed Chinese who believe the death penalty should be used more frequently here. In a land of so many people competing for limited resources, there is less tolerance for those who mess with the social order for their personal benefit. In this light, some peasant who was illegally forced to get an abortion because they already had six kids is not usually seen as a "horrific abuse". However, mothers lighting their daughters on fire in Tiananmen Square is met with horror.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Everyone knows that only children are spoiled and arrogant. The Chinese want to create a race of spoiled and arrogant people!!!

Good lord! They're all going to become Americans!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yes, so be wary .

[axi]

Raising the efficiency of labor is not a good idea in a country already suffering from a chronic oversupply of labor. Idle workers are already causing enormous social unrest in the northeast, the last thing the CCP wants is to add to their numbers.

This is why any proper communist program includes the even distibution of the available capital into the utilisation of the offered labor, so that nobody remains unemployed. This will lead to low-tech, labor intensive productive techiniques if need be, but communism can't afford to have an army of unemployed, like capitalism has.