Had an interesting conversation last night...

[orange]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You could be Jesus Christ walking the earth, but if a black kid has only seen white people saying "******" as a racial slur, what else is he supposed to think?

How you can't see the difference is bewildering.

The way in which the word is used, and the expression on the face, should be more of an indicator of how the word is meant to be used than the colour of his skin.

I went over this several times. It's diffusing the word through a humorous usage among those its meant to hurt. What better way to reduce the harm a word can cause to your psyche than to twist into something promoting solidarity with similar people and defiance of the very word itself?

I still think it's pretty ****ing rotten...and I still think that if you want to make it 'ok' for a gay person to use it, than you should make it 'ok' for a straight person to use it as well, assuming the same tone and use.

Banning the words only give them more potency to hurt.

You can't really 'ban' words like that anyway...i'm just saying the more you use them, the more socially accepted they become...but if you stop using them becuase they cause pain, then they aren't used OR accepted by anyone...

can an arab say to an arab friend "yo sand****** what's up?" without getting a few surprised expressions from onlookers??

[morb]

I don't think there's anyone here who will, being honest, say that when they are in airport and see a man of middle eastern descent, they don't get in the back of their mind a little twinge of suspicion. Human nature, and given recent events, totally understandable.

going back to the D.C. example and combinding with what you've just said here, again, "based on past history" it would then be justifiable to be a little suspicious of black people at night in downtown D.C. (i've never been so I'm going by the example). this is in all honesty. so if you were going to D.C. and a friend told you "hey be careful around black people in downtown D.C. at night" you would sit them down and have a lecture on how that's "a racist thing to say?"

I don't see exactly where you are coming from.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by morb

oh that's funny. so you're saying that "based upon past history" I would be perfectly justified in believing that all arabs/muslums wish to do me harm (which is not true of me personally anyway).

way to double back on your argument champ.

This is the first post you addressed to me, and I had not addressed anything to you prior to this. It is a confrontational, condescending tone, "champ."

You seem to be ignoring my very decent counterarguments (namely, that your arguments aren't analogous to the discussion at hand) in favor of being insulting. All I'm saying is you're spoiling what was, until your arrival, a reasoned and amicable debate.

[morb]

ok. whatever then. i gotta go anyway.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by orange
The way in which the word is used, and the expression on the face, should be more of an indicator of how the word is meant to be used than the colour of his skin.

That would be nice, but tone and facial expression can be just as easily as misinterpreted as anything else. Think of it in context. If you were standing on a street and a black guy approached you and said "hey, whitey," I bet you'd be pretty damned defensive about it. But, if you've grown up with other white kids and a good friend says "what's up, whitey," I would think you could take it as a joke, right?

I still think it's pretty ****ing rotten...and I still think that if you want to make it 'ok' for a gay person to use it, than you should make it 'ok' for a straight person to use it as well, assuming the same tone and use.

I see nothing rotten about it, I think it is empowering. Take the word "queer." It was once as bad as "******" as a homophobic slur. But then gays began calling themselves "queer." Now it's a word that has pretty much lost it's power to offend, and "Queer Studies" is a course at many universities. And if a homophobe uses the word "queer," it sounds almost antiquated, like calling a black a "negro." Wouldn't you like to see "******" disarmed in such a way?

You can't really 'ban' words like that anyway...i'm just saying the more you use them, the more socially accepted they become...

Which is the best way to destroy their hurtful connotations. I don't care if the word "******" is still around 100 years from now or not. What I care about is that, 100 years from now (and hopefully much sooner), gays are afforded every right and freedom everyone else is and are viewed as just another part of American society.

But being told "you can't use that word!" is almost as condescending as being told I can't marry the person I love. Seems remarkably...PC.

can an arab say to an arab friend "yo sand****** what's up?" without getting a few surprised expressions from onlookers??

No, but so what? If the two arabs involved are fine with it, why should they care if some onlookers are offended? Since when was there a right to not be offended? I personally love seeing white people freeze in terror when a black person around them says "nigga." Guess who used to freeze in terror at that word? Maybe it's a great way of allowing white people to see into the worldview of black people.

[orange]

i suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Boris. I think our hearts are both in the right place, which is good...

honestly, if a black person came up to me and jokingly said 'what's up whitey' I wouldn't be defensive or even offended...as long as you could tell facially and vocally that he was only joking...however, if I did take offense to being called that (which I don't...) i'd say "please don't call me by that" and that would be that...and I'd do the same with a white person.

I also think it's rotten to use the "taste of their own medicine" excuse...i never called a black person a '******'...why should I be made to 'see into the worldview of blackpeople' 50 years ago as if I'm being punished for a crime?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by orange
i suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one, Boris. I think our hearts are both in the right place, which is good...

I think so.

honestly, if a black person came up to me and jokingly said 'what's up whitey' I wouldn't be defensive or even offended...as long as you could tell facially and vocally that he was only joking...however, if I did take offense to being called that (which I don't...) i'd say "please don't call me by that" and that would be that...and I'd do the same with a white person.

I would hope your reaction would be the same as your reaction to your acquaintances use of the term "sand******."

I also think it's rotten to use the "taste of their own medicine" excuse...i never called a black person a '******'...why should I be made to 'see into the worldview of blackpeople' 50 years ago as if I'm being punished for a crime?

Whoa, that's not at all what I was saying. I was just saying that it may be a good thing for a white person to feel a little uncomfortable at the use of the word among blacks, not out of vengeance for something 50 years ago (although I wonder why you say 50, since it was only 3-4 years ago that James Byrd was dragged to death). I meant solely that it will get the white person to possibly think a little about the word, why they're uncomfortable with it, why these young black men seem to be comfortable using it amongst themselves, etc. Hopefully it will open the door to a lot of introspection on racial issues.

And, if the white guy happens to be a racist bigot, well then maybe he will be a little afraid, which I'm okay with, too...

[Guynemer]

Orange, I have a question.

Why on Earth would you WANT to say "******" or "nigga" or whatever in the first place?

[Boris Godunov]

Guynemer, he doesn't. But he was also saying that blacks shouldn't be able to use the word, either, if he can't.