Anthropic Nonsense

[Dr.Oogkloot]

Originally posted by SpencerH
So how do two atoms occupy the same space? Isnt that what is required for multiple universes?

Yes. But the wave functions of these two atoms no longer interfere with each other, the components have "decohered".
I can't think of an easier way to explain this right now, sorry :/

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Dr.Oogkloot
The reason I wouldn't say a computer has free will, is that I wouldn't say a computer has will at all. Will is something you talk about when it's about minds, and a computer is not complex enough to think of it as a mind.
If or when computers become artificially intelligent, they will also have free will I think.

There are forms of AI, they are just very rudimentary compared to humans. I think you are saying that sentience is required for free will right?

Why can't free choosing be a deterministic process?

Like I ended my post with, it comes down to the definition of free will. In this case it is the use of 'free' that is in question. I wouldn't define a process as free if it is deterministic, there is no freedom because it has to do exactly what it is designed to do.

That's very true. But I haven't seen one application where you need to know whether your choices were determined in advance on a microscopic physics level, so that way of thinking about free will seems useless.

To understand how things work is hardly useless. It would be a big waste of time to try and analyze each action on an atomic/molecular level I agree, there are just too many factors involved in our formation. The abstract that 'we all function in the same manner' can help solve differences and misunderstandings between people though. "Tout comprendre, c'est tout pardonner."... To understand all, is to forgive all.

On a personal level, it can help us to understand just why we act the way they do. By learning our own tendancies we can make adjustments to better achieve our goals.

[Dr.Oogkloot]

Originally posted by Aeson
There are forms of AI, they are just very rudimentary compared to humans. I think you are saying that sentience is required for free will right?

I don't know. Again a thing you can define however you want...

Like I ended my post with, it comes down to the definition of free will. In this case it is the use of 'free' that is in question. I wouldn't define a process as free if it is deterministic, there is no freedom because it has to do exactly what it is designed to do.

When you look at why it has to do that, it's because your brain has a very specific structure and reacts in a very specific way according to the laws of physics and so on; and this is in fact the same as, because you're choosing to do it. I wouldn't say you have no free will because you have to do what you choose to do. But yes, you can define it any way you want.

To understand how things work is hardly useless.

Well, of course, but that isn't really what I meant. I didn't mean thinking about how minds work at the atomic level is useless, just that it isn't useful to put this into the concept "free will". "Free will" normally deals with moral responsibility and such things, and since we want our definition for free will to agree with how we usually use it, and quantum gravity has nothing to do with moral responsibility, we might as well define free will as: free from coercion from "outside".

[Ethelred]

"Free will" normally deals with moral responsibility and such things, and since we want our definition for free will to agree with how we usually use it, and quantum gravity has nothing to do with moral responsibility, we might as well define free will as: free from coercion from "outside".

I will go along with that. However I find the idea of free will often comes up in a religous context. When people claim their god is all powerfull and all-knowing and created everything Free Will has to deal with the idea that coercion from the outside would have begun at the instance of creation if every aspect of the Universe is fixed from the point of creation. Which kind of negates moral responsibility since the results would be set at the start and freedom of choice would only be illusiory.

There was dog
Between two bones
He licked the one
He licked the other
He went in circles
Till he dropped dead

Freedom from Choice
Is what you want
Freedom of Choice
Is what you've got
Use your freedom of choice