socialism, property, and the state

[Imran Siddiqui]

Che, even though I love ya, you silly .

Are most commies conspiracy nuts .

[Jon Miller]

anything that can be used for personal needs can be given to others for their production and is so private propery and should be banned

Jon Miller

[Imran Siddiqui]

I kinda like private property

[chequita guevara]

Actually David, I can agree that I have a valid claim on myself without acknowledging natural rights. I live in a society that upholds the right to proerty in one's self, therefore I have that property. Had I lived two hundred years ago, I would have lived in a society that held that men had the right to property in women and in slaves, and I likely would have thought that this was natural and just, even though today we see that it is neither.

Rights did not exist, floating around until someone figured out how to properly articulate them. Rights came out of a particular form of human society. They are an ideology created to justify and support that society, at first against the arbitrary power of kings and now against their wage-slaves. But is nothing more than an idea, an agreement among humans. And we can stop agreeing that we have a right to individual property.

In the real world, of course, this argument will not be settled by reason argument, but by force, just as it has always been settled. Capitalists initially gained their property by confiscating the land of nobility, the peasantry, the American Indians, and the forced labor of African slaves. Capitalism can never be free of its original sin, and therefore it has no moral claim to property today. It holds its property through force, and ultimately it will be dispossesed by force.

We shall take the stole property of our ancestors and reclaim it for ourselves. We shall hold it in common, as our ancestors once did, and we shall use it together for all our benefit.

You may say that Americans would never elect socialists, but never is a very long time, and capitalism doesn't have that long. Besides, it wasn't too long ago that the Communist Party USA was the largest party in the United States in terms of party membership. Someday capitalism will fall. The only question is, will we go forward to socialism or will we become extinct as a species.

[Inverse Icarus]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Had I lived two hundred years ago, I would have lived in a society that held that men had the right to property in women and in slaves, and I likely would have thought that this was natural and just, even though today we see that it is neither.

whoohoo! nationalize women and distribute them equally to all the men!

(commie that never gets laid: uberkrux)

[Imran Siddiqui]

We shall take the stole property of our ancestors and reclaim it for ourselves. We shall hold it in common, as our ancestors once did, and we shall use it together for all our benefit.

And stop all technological progress and innovation dead in its tracks .

You may say that Americans would never elect socialists, but never is a very long time, and capitalism doesn't have that long. Besides, it wasn't too long ago that the Communist Party USA was the largest party in the United States in terms of party membership. Someday capitalism will fall. The only question is, will we go forward to socialism or will we become extinct as a species.

I vote extinction before socialism .

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Property as such exists even in the animal world. For example, some animals regard territory as their property and defend it against intruders.

That's not the same thing. In the animal kingdom, "property" only exists as long as you can defend it. In the human world, property is an agreement among humans, so that no one else will even try and take it. We agree it is yours. Do not confuse similarity with identity.

[Jon Miller]

rights do exist

two of them

right to consience and right to have will

the some of the right of will is given over to social structures to give them a right of will

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

I do not recognise to right to property (even if the property is your own person)

Jon Miller

(note edit)

[Jon Miller]

wait, i missed one

right to existence

this is also given over to social structures so that they have a right to exist

Jon Miller

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Are most commies conspiracy nuts .

Actually, many are. Tell them something bad about the system and they'll jump to embrace it without doing any fact check. But that doesn't make them very different from most people.

It's something the more responsible members of the socialist movement try hard to combat. It's hard enough being taken seriously without believing that the government is holding aliens in Area 51.

On the other hand, just because something is a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it isn't true. After all, who would thought the the President of the United States would hire some ex-CIA agents to buglarize the Democratic Party headquarters to plant bugs to find out what the DP knew?

[Jon Miller]

there is the important difference between us

I think we should use the government and you do not

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Actually, many are. Tell them something bad about the system and they'll jump to embrace it without doing any fact check. But that doesn't make them very different from most people.

It's something the more responsible members of the socialist movement try hard to combat. It's hard enough being taken seriously without believing that the government is holding aliens in Area 51.

On the other hand, just because something is a conspiracy theory doesn't mean it isn't true. After all, who would thought the the President of the United States would hire some ex-CIA agents to buglarize the Democratic Party headquarters to plant bugs to find out what the DP knew?

reason why political parties need to be regulated (and maybe gottev rid of)

Jon Miller

[chequita guevara]

Well, it's not whether or not I think we should use our own government. I'll use every weapon at my disposal that will help bring about socialism. We will use the government to advance our cause.

Where we differ is whether or not we can ultimately be successful using the capitalist state against capitalism. I think that as soon as we show our intention to be real socialists, rather than just carry out the capitalists orders, that they will begin to undermine our authority and eventually foment a military coup, ala Chile.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
That's not the same thing. In the animal kingdom, "property" only exists as long as you can defend it. In the human world, property is an agreement among humans, so that no one else will even try and take it. We agree it is yours. Do not confuse similarity with identity.

This agreement among humans does not fix everyone's property share once and forever. Rather, it can be regarded as a set of rules of the game, according to which a given property can be transfered from one owner to another. But if so, any property owner is permanently at risk of losing his property. Thus he must defend it. Therefore there is no principal difference with the animal kingdom in this respect. In the capitalist world, too, property exists as long as you can defend it.