UN mission to Jenin

[Zevico]

Israel is not in the wrong:
Human Rights groups have been in Jenin for quite a while-they have said there is no evidence of a massacre. Israelis are not Nazis-they don't just kill women and children and etc like that. I am Israeli (semi), I have lived in Israel, and I can tell you that if a massacre was ordered very few soldiers or officers would obey that command.
Why didn't they allow the UN into Israel? Because the Israelis realised this would be a witch hunt, not a investigation. At first, the UN said they'll investigate Jenin-Israel has no problem with that. Then, the UN said they'll start off with Jenin and then go to other places in PA, then obviously in the end they'll condemn Israel for "extreme use of force" or somesuch, as they always have. Then, the UN put together a team of politicans and etc to examine the camp-Israel thought there were would be former military or military generals and etc as most of the comittee-these people can tell whether Israel massacred people or not, and whether they did stuff on purpose or not.

[DeeEllway]

I wish they would bomb Israel to the stone age! Of course tht´s not gonna happen. The jewish lobby in Washington is all to powerful

[Guardian]

Originally posted by DeeEllway
I wish they would bomb Israel to the stone age!

Bad idea.
Even if it could be done, it wouldn't solve anything, just ensure that even more people would be hurt.

[DeeEllway]

Not people, jews. There´s a slight difference

[KrazyHorse]

Not people, jews. There´s a slight difference

And a one, and a two and a three:

Goodbye, thank you for playing.

You're a very crappy DL.

[aaglo]

This DeeEllway must be a joke...

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by DeeEllway
Not people, jews. There´s a slight difference

you're gone.

I'm sick of this ****, so since this is likely a DL, it's permanent. If it turns out to be WFHermans, that one is gone for good.

If I find it's anyone else, the DL creator will get a two month ban.

[Az]

thanks MtG.


about the Issue:

I agree that Israel should have agreed to the inspectors. But apparently our government is paranoid about the UN. kind of a thing to be expect after the overwhelming success of UNIFIL.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Originally posted by Zevico
Human Rights groups have been in Jenin for quite a while-they have said there is no evidence of a massacre.

Sorry, Zevico, but here is where I have to disagree with you.
AFAIK, human rights groups are not meant to take evidence of war crimes. However, the same groups that said there was no evidence of massacre said there was evidence of war crimes, such as the denial of medical assistance.

Originally posted by Zevico
Israelis are not Nazis-they don't just kill women and children and etc like that. I am Israeli (semi), I have lived in Israel, and I can tell you that if a massacre was ordered very few soldiers or officers would obey that command.

I do agree with you that Israellis are not Nazis because I do not support generalizations or exagerations: therefore, not all Israellis despise the Palestinians, and I actuallly don't believe that those who do despise them do it out of a Nazi ideology (although some Israelli extremists do advocate zionist superiority).
I also don't know how a massacre is ordered. I believe, however, that a massacre may be allowed to occur if just a few officers and soldiers (or phalanx) decide to neglect the respect they must have on civilian lives and no one prevents it. And, again, I'm not saying that there was a massacre in Jenin: I was waiting for the resuls of the UN mission, that the Israelli goverment boicoted.

Originally posted by Zevico
Why didn't they allow the UN into Israel? Because the Israelis realised this would be a witch hunt, not a investigation. At first, the UN said they'll investigate Jenin-Israel has no problem with that. Then, the UN said they'll start off with Jenin and then go to other places in PA, then obviously in the end they'll condemn Israel for "extreme use of force" or somesuch, as they always have. Then, the UN put together a team of politicans and etc to examine the camp-Israel thought there were would be former military or military generals and etc as most of the comittee-these people can tell whether Israel massacred people or not, and whether they did stuff on purpose or not.

The reasoning you present is just a demonstration of a paranoid atitude towards the UN, with no reason whasoever to support it.
It is also based on irrelevant facts: it's true that the first team didn't included military advisors, but the final composition had them.

Summing up, the Israelli Government is having a sad display of disrespect toward the opinion all the other nations. There is not one nation in the world fully supporting it's actions, not even the US. Every request done by the UN or EU as been disregarded, and most of the requests by the US have also been disregarded.

In what way does this serve the Israelli people's legitimate right to Security, I honnestly don't know. Only time will show if the hawkish strategy of the Israelli Government had any shred of sucess. If not, Sharon will be out of office, but it will be some (many) anonymous Israellis who will really suffer.

Meanwhile, I hope the International Community further isolates Israel, until the people realize that, at least, justice must be allowed to take due course (through independent investigations).
Otherwize, they are falling as low as the ones that call their killers heroes. The result is the same: the criminals do not get the blame and are not being condemned for their crimes.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Ecowiz Returns

Sorry, Zevico, but here is where I have to disagree with you.
AFAIK, human rights groups are not meant to take evidence of war crimes. However, the same groups that said there was no evidence of massacre said there was evidence of war crimes, such as the denial of medical assistance.

And on this I would have to disagree with you. I would hazard a guess that the entire issue of denying medical assistance is pretty much based solely on politicians generating sound bytes over the instances (two in number I believe) where Palestinian ambulances (sometimes known as explosive ordnance transports ) were delayed. These lost their right to neutrality the first time they were used as such.

The reasoning you present is just a demonstration of a paranoid atitude towards the UN, with no reason whasoever to support it.
It is also based on irrelevant facts: it's true that the first team didn't included military advisors, but the final composition had them.

Likewise for this point. Israel initially had no objection to an investigation until the UN demonstrated (at best) its willingness to be swayed by the "anti-Israel lobby".
When they initially made no attempt whatsoever to organize a reasonably neutral and competent (ie: military rather than political) investigative team they lost whatever confidence the Israelis may have had in an unbiased investigation. It was the UN itself that was solely responsible for screwing this up.
Anan basically admitted as much in his later speeches.

[Ecowiz Returns]

ravagon:
On your first comment: In this matter a chose not to discuss aleged facts. An international inquiry was set to be made. If it was made, we could discuss whether it was only one event, and if there was no possibilty of screening for explosives before allowing the ambulance, or even the need of transporting bombs to an already destroyed war zone.

On you second comment:
As far as I know, Anan didn't admit any of your claims. The news I received was that the Israelly Goverment made all that was possible to prevent the inquiry. Having been in the territory prior to the enquiry team's arrival, the Israelly Government would have had the oportunity to refute any accusation, were anyone to result from the team's report. Their choice was clear, no matter what reasoning they now present and you chose to agree. I, for one, am not that eager to believe in whatever a politician says, particularly when trying to avoid that more information about an event comes to light.

[Saint Marcus]

Human Rights groups have been in Jenin for quite a while-they have said there is no evidence of a massacre.

True. Like the dutch team reported, no massacre/bloodbath. Though there were numerous human rights violations

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by DeeEllway
I wish they would bomb Israel to the stone age! Of course tht´s not gonna happen. The jewish lobby in Washington is all to powerful

What is really interesting about this comment is that the person came out and said it. Other comements here come close but never quite go as far. Things like Israel is going to pay and they should slam Israel come close, but the others aren't quite as brave.

Of course there are still no UN inspection teams inspecting the PA for evidence of Terrorist support. But I guess Arafat's word is good enough right.

[Az]

oh , dear, human rights violations. If the west condemned everytime there are human rights violations, the arab countries would have ceased to exist a long time ago.

[Az]

Sprayber : there is no point in arguing with him, he's a stupid nazi.

but don't listen to me . After all, I am not quite human , remember?