You should speak the language of a country if you live there.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


Trust me, you don't know what you're talking about. If you think that Canada could/should have forced English on Quebec then you're wacko. At one point 40% of Canada was Francophone.

At one point Canada was way the hell more than 40% Francophone.

On the other hand, even when Mexico Ran things in the southwest, there weren't that many Spanish speakers. First the Indians, then the damn Gringos. We shouldn't be creating a large enclave where one didn't exist.

[Asher]

Quebec shouldn't be forced to speak English.

Conversely, French should never have been a required course in provinces like Alberta in public schools.

[KrazyHorse]

You aren't creating it; you're not deliberately destroying it. I thought you were a free-marketer...

At one point Canada was way the hell more than 40% Francophone

I'm pretty sure not, actually. By the time of the conquest of Quebec, Ontario was already getting pretty big, and the Maritimes were still more developed than Quebec.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Asher
Quebec shouldn't be forced to speak English.

Conversely, French should never have been a required course in provinces like Alberta in public schools.

Yes it should, just like English should be a required course in Quebec schools. Lazy Calgarian...

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Yes it should, just like English should be a required course in Quebec schools. Lazy Calgarian...

English should not be a required course in Quebec schools either. It's up to the kids/parents if they learn English.

The Francophone population in Alberta is something like 0.5% or less. Why the hell is French a required public school course?!

Mandarin is used FAR more than French in this province, and most schools don't even offer an optional course on it!

[KrazyHorse]

You live in the same country as we do. That still means something, Asher.

[Asher]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
You live in the same country as we do. That still means something, Asher.

That's so incredibly stupid I don't know where to start.
French is absolutely useless anywhere near where we live. No one speaks it, and if they do, they speak English as well. Requiring us to learn French on the basis that some *******s thousands of miles away speak it primarily, and we live in the same country, is simply stupid.

It'd make far more sense to make Mandarin the "required" second language, or even most sense: Not HAVE a required second language.

[Lonestar]

Maybe you should teach "American" as a secondary language, Asher.

"It's pronounced zee, not zed, zee!"

[nationalist]

Re: You should speak the language of a country if you live there.

Originally posted by Sava
I don't want to sound like Pat Buchanan or anything here. Most people know me as a liberal. But there is one issue I can't understand.
Last night at work, I was talking to one of the Mexicans who works with me. We got to talking about other people who he came to America with. My friend has citizenship, although he originally came to the US illegally. Although he took it upon himself to learn English, many people he came to America with didn't. Many of these people are still here illegally. I see something wrong with that. If you move to a country and wish to become a member of that society, you should conform, i.e. learn the language. If you don't want to, then get the hell out.

Immigrants should want to assimilate. If they don't, then they have no right to be in the country. Buchnanan says this, and people write him off as a loon. Why?

[Spiffor]

Definition of assimilation : losing his culture to entirely live by the new rules. It opposes to the concept of integration : dapting his culture to the new one. Basically, Buchanan is ill-treated because his statement is against the very idea of cultural variety
I absolutely support that the immigrants should learn the language of their new country. Not only for economic / nationalistic reasons, but also for intellectual reasons (OK, bash me as a "leftist intellectual green European" ). I speak 3 languages quite well, and it's great for my own culture, for my own Weltanschauung.

But not all immigrants want to assimilate, and that's normal : when you immigrate, you come from a culture you like, you use a language you like, or at least are used to. It's pretty difficult to live in a different environment, with another culture. So, his individual culture is like a jewel. It's possible to enrich one's culture with another wulture, but it's very hard to impoverish one's culture by discarding the old one.
As a French, I lived in Germany for 1 year, and will continue to do so. There are many things I love in the German culture, and I use them in my everyday life. Also, there are many things I prefer from my original culture, and I won't try hard to look german, while I know I can't (I still 'ave maï 'orribeul French aksent). No reasonable german would like me to assimilate (i.e lose my culture), but I want to integrate myself (i.e enrich my culture)

[nationalist]

Spiffor,

Yeah, I didn't use the best word choice. Integration is what I should have used. I believe in the American melting pot instead of the American Tossed Salad. So does Pat Buchanan. If you don't want to integrate yourself, then don't come to that country.

[mindseye]

Wow, a lot of bullocks concentrated in this thread.

In the US, most second-generation immigrants learn the primary language of the land, same as anywhere else in the world. Multi-lingual schools help immigrants successfully integrate - gee, who would want that to happen in the world's first immigrant-built superpower.

I guess a few of you have forgotten that in the recent past, English was not nearly so predominant in the US. I'm a former midwesterner, before 1900 there were still huge pockets of German-speakers in that part of the country. My grandma (age 98) still has a German accent. In other parts of the country Italian, French, Polish, Czech, Finnish, and many other languages were the local norm. The generations which followed learned English, usually loosing the mother tongue completely by the third generation. Just like what is happening now. I saw this first-hand during 18 years of living in San Francisco, which has many, many immigrants from Mexico, Philippines, China, Vietnam and elsewhere.

Here in Shanghai, I am doing my best to speak, read, and write Mandarin. Not to learn the local tongue is to lock yourself out of many aspects of local life. Chinese people show endless encouragement to any white foreigner who makes the effort.

On the other hand, many Americans here speak NO Chinese at all, not even "hello"! No Chinese are asking for them to be "shipped back" to the US.

[Spiffor]

I'm absolutely against the tossed salad image. It's causing hate crimes. These are something specific to the US, but the constant communautarization bring them to Europe, with the recent arsons of Synaguogues for example.
But I'm not really fond of the melting pot image either : I'm afraid it impoverishes culture by stopping them from being original to each other.
I never really think of this, but I'd be oriented towards a model where wultural origins are clear and definite, but chere there is a common language and common values as a bridge between non-exclusive communities (a bit utopic, but I heard that's what they're trying to do in Canada, correct me if I'm wrong)

[David Floyd]

And I don't ask for non-English speaking LEGAL immigrants to be deported. Much as I might like it, that would be wrong. I ask for ILLEGALS to be deported, unless we are willing to dispense with social welfare and the minimum wage.

[nationalist]

On the other hand, many Americans here speak NO Chinese at all, not even "hello"! No Chinese are asking for them to be "shipped back" to the US.

They should. If the American wants to live in China, but doesn't feel the need to learn even a little of the language, then he should be sent back. He's disrespecting the Chinese that he is living with, as well as making Americans look like idiots.