Why does Israel keep putting settlers in the occupied territories?

[Drefsab]

Cuz they were programmed by the same guy who wrote the Civ III AI.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
You see paikitis with intolerant and narrowminded people like Chris 62, and in the mid-east those are 13 on a dozen, it's quite futile to have a constructive discussion and solve any problems at all. That's one good reason why they build settlements.

Your even more foolish then I thought.

I 'm talking strick legality.

Not what I would do, you pinhead!

[Eli]

Originally posted by Drefsab
Cuz they were programmed by the same guy who wrote the Civ III AI.

No, it's not that bad.

[Bereta_Eder]

Chris,
I don't agree with you.

I believe that there is a situation that is as it is.

There is the west bank. There are borders. Upon these we start building Palestine.

Autonomy, Independence.
This requires that Israel stops settlers from going there and that it recognizes the state of Palestine.

I have the feeling that if Palestinians didn't fight, there would not be any Palestine at all considering Israel's expansionist plans.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Chris 62
I 'm talking strick legality.

Isn't it a bit illogical to defend settlement that are declared illegal 'casue they are not illegal acording to the people that build them? As for the pals refusing the UN, that's not a reason for denying the same rights as other, legaly speaking. And legaly speaking I hardly think that "just desserts" is accepted by many courts on this planet. Maybe on yours...

[Ming]

Originally posted by paiktis22
I have the feeling that if Palestinians didn't fight, there would not be any Palestine at all considering Israel's expansionist plans.

Hmmmm... then why have they turned down EVERY offer of land for peace... Because they always claim it's not enough. Hmmmm...
And you say that Israel is expansionist

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by paiktis22
Chris,
I don't agree with you.

I believe that there is a situation that is as it is.

The first problem that must be dealt with is finding a Pal group that Israel is willing to deal with.
Arafat is unacceptable to them based on past actions.

There is the west bank. There are borders. Upon these we start building Palestine.

Insisting that ALL settlements of Israel be dismantled is unrealistic, the Israelis won't go for it, a better solution needs to be found.
People need to forget the 67 border, it's based on the 47 Partion plan that was never accepted.
What is needed is a plan that recognizes who is living where now, not 30 or 50 years ago.

Autonomy, Independence.
This requires that Israel stops settlers from going there and that it recognizes the state of Palestine.

The Israelis need to see compromise from the Islamic side, an end to the calls for genocide, anti-Israeli propaganda, an end to terrorism and bombings, and this must come FIRST or there will be no agreement.

I have the feeling that if Palestinians didn't fight, there would not be any Palestine at all considering Israel's expansionist plans.

If they hadn't fought in 48, they would be celibrating their 54th year of independance with Israel.
They caused this, not the other way around.
They have to stop fighting.

[chequita guevara]

The pre-'67 border is not based upon the '47 Partition Plan, it is based on the '48 wars of conquest by Israel and the Arab nations. Now, let's have a look at some evidence, to show how massively unfair the '47 partition plan was to the Arabs.

Palestine Maps 1937-1948

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Isn't it a bit illogical to defend settlement that are declared illegal 'casue they are not illegal acording to the people that build them? As for the pals refusing the UN, that's not a reason for denying the same rights as other, legaly speaking. And legaly speaking I hardly think that "just desserts" is accepted by many courts on this planet. Maybe on yours...

Your trying to argue in a vacum, son.

You made up your mind, convicted the Israelis, and went on from there.

Look at the facts dispationatly.

The Pals rejected the UN partion plan, instead embarked on a genocidal war in 48.
In places like Haifa, the Jewish mayor BEGGED the Pals to stay after they lost, they refused, saying they would be back with an invading army and would have it ALL.

The Pal's militancy and terrorism has caused them to be ejected from several Muslim states in the past.

So we can say, from the planet I'm on, earth, the biggest stumbling block to peace is the pals.

How it is for you on Mars may be another story.

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The 67 border is not based upon the 47 Partition Plan, it is based on the 48 wars of conquest by Israel and the Arab nations.

The only "conquest" was an attempt by the Arab states to bury Israel, or do you deny this peace of history?

There is less then 10% deviation from the UN partion plan and the 67 border.

You will have to do way better Che, your argueing the wrong side if you support the Pals.

THEY started it.

[Lonestar]

...and the Israelis will finish it.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Chris 62
You made up your mind, convicted the Israelis, and went on from there.

Look at the facts dispationatly.

And why should one not say the same about you? You clearly, a lot more clearly than me as I see it (even if I'm hardly the best judge), has judged the pals. Your just making pathetic arguments about who did that and so on. That most of the people in the area wasn't born in 1948 totally passes you by as you judge a entire people. And it's not like there's other facts (as you call your selection of historical interpetations) that says quite the opposite. I've had this conversation a million times over and it's unproductive and narrow-minded and is a part of the entire problem.

I don't take sides against pals or jews. I take sides against goverments. What you're up to is something else.

Mars is pretty nice this time of the year...

[Chris 62]

I hope to see a Pal state, but it must be based on today's reality, not what was 50+ years ago.

Accusations of "conquest" by israel are a joke, they fought a desperate war in 48, were heavily outnumbered, and they won.

Large chunks of the Pal population fled wityh their invader friends when their murder plan failed, it's just to damn bad for them, isn't it?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Chris 62
The Pals rejected the UN partion plan,

As they had a right to do. Furthermore, the US originally abstained from the drawing up of the Partition Plan because we knew it would lead to civil war.

instead embarked on a genocidal war in 48.

You have your years wrong. The Palestinian-Jewish Civil War began in Novermber, 1947, and lasted until March of 1948 (with the exception of Jerusalem, where Palestinians fought to hold on). After that, the Israelis began occupying as much of Palestine as they could grab before the Brits left. The "genocidal" war, so-called because one commander of an insignificant military force with no support called for throwing the Jewis into the sea, was really a land grab by all countries. Everyone wanted a piee of Palestine, only Israel and Jordan were strong enough to hold on. (Egypt only got a piece because the UN insisted Israel withdraw from part of the Gaza area).

All told, there were no good guys in that war (but there were lots of innocents), and the Jews weren't fighting to save their lives. There were massacres on both sides, expulsions on both sides, etc.

In places like Haifa, the Jewish mayor BEGGED the Pals to stay after they lost, they refused, saying they would be back with an invading army and would have it ALL.

Some Pals left like that. Most left because of the fighting. After the fighting was over, the remainder, in an ironic twist of rhetoric, were herded into the sea where they were rescued by Egyptian fishing boats. In Dier Yassin, they were simply massacred. In Lydah, they were marched through the desert with no food or water and expleed from the Israeli conquered territory. Many died on that march.

The major cause of refugees during the war was the fighting, pure and simple. Neither calls for Arabs leaving and waiting for the reconquest of Israel nor the news of Israel massacres of Arabs were equal to the fear of being killed between two clashing armies.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Accusations of "conquest" by israel are a joke, they fought a desperate war in 48, were heavily outnumbered, and they won.

Israeli troops outnumbered Arab troops at all points during the '48 wars. Stop buying Ben Guion's rhetorica about 600,000 versus 23 million. At the begin of the wars, Israel barely outnumbered the Arabs, by the end they had more than doulbe the Arab troops. The ratio should be even greater, considering that except where Israel attacked the Jordanians, Iraqis, and Lebanese, they didn't have to fight those three countries.

And of course, you ignore that fact that Egypt was also fighting Jordan.