B-52H turns 50!

[Jon Miller]

THe B-52H and the nuklear bomb are both very good tools

may they never need to be used again

Jon Miller

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Transcend
Chegnitz, run out of arguments huh? It seems your only argument now is to resort to personal attacks.

I was eating and making a rather lengthy reply in another thread. I'll deal with you by and by.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Transcend
Tingkai, I think you are just jealous that China doesn't have the same stuff.

B-52 is a great tool to keep our country secure and democracy free from the Soviet threat. The hawks in Kremlin would laugh their butt in face of your naive pacifism, Chegnitz. Unfortunately, there were not enough Americans like you so they were unable to gain too many advantages.

I couldn't care less if China had them. After all, I'm Canadian.

As for the B-52 being a great tool. Forget it. The continued service of the B-52 merely reflects the lobbying power of the US Air Force and SAC.

As a platform to deliver nukes, the B-52 is not needed. Subs are the most effective nuke missile carriers. Almost impossible to stop, unlike the B-52.

The B-52 is not needed in its role of carrying cruise missiles. The B-2 is better. The USN can also deliver the same punch more effectively.

For general bombing, the B-2 is better, but this role is being phased out by the development of "smart" weapons. A couple of bombs dropped accurately from, say, an F-18 is more effective than carpet bombing a general area.

So what good is the B-52? It keeps a lot of air bases open and that keeps the politicans happy. It gives the USAF an excuse to have nukes. And it keeps a lot of people employed in the USAF.

The US would get more bangs for the buck and be far better off by retiring these old dogs of war.

[Lonestar]

The USAF was going to retire the B-52 in the early '90's, and replace the fleet with some hundred B-2s.

As a B-2 costs on the order of $2 billion a pop, I think the USAF is making the right decision to just refurbish the old birds...

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Tingkai


I couldn't care less if China had them. After all, I'm Canadian.

As for the B-52 being a great tool. Forget it. The continued service of the B-52 merely reflects the lobbying power of the US Air Force and SAC.

As a platform to deliver nukes, the B-52 is not needed. Subs are the most effective nuke missile carriers. Almost impossible to stop, unlike the B-52.

The B-52 is not needed in its role of carrying cruise missiles. The B-2 is better. The USN can also deliver the same punch more effectively.

For general bombing, the B-2 is better, but this role is being phased out by the development of "smart" weapons. A couple of bombs dropped accurately from, say, an F-18 is more effective than carpet bombing a general area.

So what good is the B-52? It keeps a lot of air bases open and that keeps the politicans happy. It gives the USAF an excuse to have nukes. And it keeps a lot of people employed in the USAF.

The US would get more bangs for the buck and be far better off by retiring these old dogs of war.

Great, first you tell us what an evil beast this plane is, now you think others are even better in killing people....

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by BeBro


Great, first you tell us what an evil beast this plane is, now you think others are even better in killing people....

This is fairly simple. The B-52 is a weapon of mass destruction and should not be glorified and it is not an efficient or effective weapon. The US has more effective weapons that can do the jobs that needs to be done while causing fewer civilian deaths.

[joseph1944]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


2002 - 1961 = 41, not 51.

You are correct. The B-52A is fifty not the H Model. The B-52 still did not fight in Korea. Until Vietnam the B-52 was a Nuc bomber only. They had to convert the D model to non-nuc status to use in Nam. The G and H model where still Nucs until much later (after Nam).

[Goingonit]

Tools are to be used in moderation. They are neither bad nor good until someone picks them up, with a very few exceptions (like sawed-off shotguns; the good you could do with a sawed-off shot gun escapes me. Weapons of war can be used to protect your country, but not one of those).

[Felch]

Sawed off shotguns can be used to rob convenience stores. Which is "good" if you're the one doing the robbing.

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by Felch X
Sawed off shotguns can be used to rob convenience stores. Which is "good" if you're the one doing the robbing.

Feh. Go rob something.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Transcend
How many wars did USSR fight from 1945 to 1990? Well, here is a partial list:

Let's deal with your list before I create a full accounting of both sides.

1946-1949: Sponsored Chinese Communists in their civil war

Okay, anyone who actually knows anything about the Chinese Revolution knows that continually advised the CCP to make peace with the KMT, to submit to KMT authority, and didn't give the CCP very much aid at all. Stalin spent his entire carreer as General Secretary of the CPSU throttling the life out of revolutions. There was a reason Mao broke with the Comintern in the mid '30s, and it was this break that allowed him to succeed, rather than wind up in a ditch with a KMT bullet in the back of his head.

1948-49: Sponsored communist uprisings in Malaysia, Greece, and Turkey

Yes, everyone knows that people living in dictatorial countries are perfectly content until some Soviet spy comes around and tricks them in to trying to overthrow their government. If it weren't for the Soviet Union, there'd never be any revolutions anywhere

As far as I'm aware, there weren't any Commie uprisings in either Turkey or Malaysia in the late 40s. I could be wrong, but I think I would have heard of them. Greece, however, is another story. Stalin ordered the Greek communists to submit to British and monarchal authority. This resulted in many thousands of them being tortured and murdered. Finally they rebelled, against orders, without Stalin;s help. They were aided by Tito, who had already broken with Stalin at this time.

1950: Forced Kim-IL-Sung into attacking South Korea

Right, he forced Kim to attack South Korea while the USSR was boycotting the UN Security Council because it was such a brilliant idea. After all, why sponsor a war and not allow the other side to fight. That's why the Soviets must not have allowed themselves to veto UN intervention.

Okay, history lesson (there's gonna be a lot of these), when the US and USSR rolled into Korea, there was a new government already set up, the People's Republic of Korea. It had fought the Japanese during the war, and following Japanese collapse, took power and organized the country. The US, in its zone, overthrew the new government, imported an American-Korean, called him president, and proceeded to help slaughter 100,000 members of the PRK. Border skirmishes between the North and the South were common place and fierce. The day that the North attacked, the South announced that it had captured a North Korean city. North and South Korea are artificial entities. The war was a civil war. No one had to be forced into starting it, and both sides were itching for it.

1951: Tricked Chinese into the Korean War

Right, the Chinese needed to be tricked into intervening in Korea, because having US war planese bombing their side of the border, having the US threaten North Korean dams which provided electricity for Manchuria, the massacres of North Koreans by the RoK army, and MacArthurs threats of invading China weren't enough of an inducement for the Chinese to enter the war on their own.

1953: Invaded East Germany to crush the Berlin Uprising

They didn't invade East Germany, but they did use troops to crush the East Berlin uprising. I'm glad you added this, because I would have left it out, and also all the times that the US used troops to suppress urban uprisings. Now I can tack Detroit, 1967 on.

1957: Invaded Hungaria to crush another uprising

True a dark day for socialism. The workers in Hungary were demanding true socialism. A democratic workers state would have shown the USSR for the farce it was. That's why they crushed it, and that's why NATO stood by and ignored its pleas for help.

1959: Sponsored Castro to overthrow existing Cuban government

You're one of those right-wing nuts who think that every revolt has a KGB agent behind it, aren't you? Do you think the Civil Rights movement was directed from Moscow? What about Rock and Roll? The American peace movement? You don't give people any redit for wanting to end their oppression on their own, do you?

The Communist Party of Cuba was opposed to Castro. The PCC and Castro were at odds until several years after the revolution. In fact, until the Bay of Pigs invasion by the US, Cuba was trying desperately to get along with the US and kept the USSR at bay.

1960s: Massive military aid to Arab countries to fight against Israelis

This is irrelevent and doesn't meet the criteria I set out.

1963-1973: Massive military aid, including thousands of advisors, to North Vietnam to fight against the US

This is irrelevent. In any event, the USSR didn't start the war, and wasnt able to provide that much assistance due to their ships being mined and bombed in Hanoi.

1968: Invaded Czechslovakia to crush the "Prag Spring"

True.

1969: Border clash with China almost lead to nuclear exchange

I'll need proof. AFAIK, all of the border clashes were in the early 60s. Furthermore, neither the USSR nor China have ever threatened to use nuclear weapons against another country. That honor, alone, is given to the US, who is also the only country every to use nuclear weapons on another country.

1979-1989: Invaded Afghansitan

It was not an invasion, since the Soviets were asked in by the Afgani government to help them deal with a CIA sponsored uprising. But it still counts under the criteria I gave.



Okay, let's start with the Soviets, every war, including wars started by their allies.

1917-1918, WWI. They inhereted this war from previous governments and got out of it as soon as th4ey could.

1918-1920, Russian Civil War, the Whites started it, not the Reds.

1918-1920, the Foreign Internvetion, the Allies invade Socialist Russia to strangle the Revolution.

1920-1921, Polish War, the Poles see Russia's weakness as a chance to seize land. They suceed due to Stalin's failure to follow orders.

1923, invasion of the Transcaucasian Republic, Lenin asks Stalin to settle the dispute with their fellow socialist republic (led by Mensheviks). Lenin is diabled due to strokes and Stalin takes an army down and invaded the Republic. Lenin wants Stalin expleed from the party and government, but is unable to do so due to his incapacity.

1930s, Tuva, Stalin seizes the territory of Tuva.

1936-1939, Spanish Civil War, Soviets give a little bit of aid to Spanish Republic and stab Spanish Revolution in back.

1939, Naza-Soviet Partition of Poland, Soviets take back the land they lost in 1921.

1939, Occupation of Baltics and Moldavia, Stalin begins securing his foreward areas in anticipation of a Nazi invasion. Moldavia is recovered from Romania who seized it during the Foreign intervention.

1939-1940, The Winter War, same as above.

1941-1945, The Great Patriotic War, aka WWII. Invaded by Nazis.

1951-1953, The Korean War, Soviets supply North Koreans with war matierals and fighter pilots. They also get bombed near Vladivostok by Allies.

1953, The Berlin Uprising, Soviets crush a woerks revolt in East Berlin.

1956, Hungarian Workers Uprising, Soviets crush uprising.

early 1960s, border clashes with Chinese, not much to be said.

1967, The Six Days War, Soviets send fleet to Eastern Mediterranian to save Arab allies who were attacked by Israel. Israel's finally agreeing to a truce averts nuclear war.

1973, Yom Kippur War, Soviets send fleet to Eastern Mediterranian to save Arab allies who attacked Israel. Israel's finally agreeing to a truce averts nuclear war.

1979-1988, Afganistan, local uprising against freeing women gets sponsorhsip by CIA and begins to threaten government. Government asks for Soviet help, which leads to ten years of brutal, nasty war.

1991, Invasion of Lithuania, USSR rolls in the tanks to stop Lithuanian cecession.

That's seventeen wars and interventions in 85 years. Looks bad for the Soviets, but wait, here comes the US. The list is so long, I'm just gonna put years and dates. Some of these begin before 1917, but they continue past it, so I'm including them


1912-25, Nicaragua

1912-41, China

1914-17, Mexico

1915-34, Haiti

1916-24, Dominican Republic

1917, China

1917-18, WWI

1917-22, Cuba

1918-19, Mexico

1918-20, Panama

1919-20, Soviet Russia

1919, Dalmatia

1919, Turkey

1919, Honduras

1920, China

1920-22, Russia

1921, Panama

1922, Turkey

1922-23, China

1924, Honduras

1924, China

1925, Honduras

1925, Panama

1926, China

1926-1933, Nicaragua

1927, China

That's twenty-eight, and I haven't even gotten out of the 1920s.

1932, China

1933, Cuba

1934, China

1941-45, WWII

1945-60s, China

1940s -50s, Phillipines

1945-53, Korea

1947 - 50s, Greece

1953, Iran

1953-54, Guatemala

1950-73, Vietnam

1955-1973, Cambodia

1957-1973, Laos

1958, Lebanon

1959-63, Haiti

1960, the Congo

1960, Guatelmala

1961-64, Brazil

1960-66, Dominican Republic

1959-present, Cuba

1965, Indonesia

1966, Ghana

1970-73, Uraguay

1964, Algeria

1964-1973, Chile

1964-74, Greece

1964 - 75, Bolivia

1962 - 90s, Guatemala

1966, Ghana

1973 - 75, Australia

1975 - 90s, Angola

1979-84, Grenada

1979 - 1992, Afganistan

1980 - 94, El Salvador

1981 - 89, Libya

1981 - 90, Nicaragua

1980s - present, Peru

1990, Panama

1990 - present, Iraq

1990s - present, Columbia

1994 - present, Haiti

1998 - Sudan

1998 - Afganistan

1999, Yugoslavia

2001 - 2, Afganistan

2002, Phillipines

Oh, I'm sure I forgot some, and I only included successful coup attempts. I count 74 military and CIA interventions abroad. Statisitically, the US is 4.35 times more warlike than the USSR. Now, I'm tossing defensive wars in there, like WWII, but a war's a war.

Now, go find a mirror. Laugh at your naivity.

[DinoDoc]

Can we limit this list to those actions with 1000+ battle deaths? Otherwise your Soviet list is heavily stilted to favor one side.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Let's deal with your list before I create a full accounting of both sides.

1946-1949: Sponsored Chinese Communists in their civil war

Okay, anyone who actually knows anything about the Chinese Revolution knows that continually advised the CCP to make peace with the KMT, to submit to KMT authority, and didn't give the CCP very much aid at all. Stalin spent his entire carreer as General Secretary of the CPSU throttling the life out of revolutions. There was a reason Mao broke with the Comintern in the mid '30s, and it was this break that allowed him to succeed, rather than wind up in a ditch with a KMT bullet in the back of his head.

1948-49: Sponsored communist uprisings in Malaysia, Greece, and Turkey

Yes, everyone knows that people living in dictatorial countries are perfectly content until some Soviet spy comes around and tricks them in to trying to overthrow their government. If it weren't for the Soviet Union, there'd never be any revolutions anywhere

As far as I'm aware, there weren't any Commie uprisings in either Turkey or Malaysia in the late 40s. I could be wrong, but I think I would have heard of them. Greece, however, is another story. Stalin ordered the Greek communists to submit to British and monarchal authority. This resulted in many thousands of them being tortured and murdered. Finally they rebelled, against orders, without Stalin;s help. They were aided by Tito, who had already broken with Stalin at this time.

1950: Forced Kim-IL-Sung into attacking South Korea

Right, he forced Kim to attack South Korea while the USSR was boycotting the UN Security Council because it was such a brilliant idea. After all, why sponsor a war and not allow the other side to fight. That's why the Soviets must not have allowed themselves to veto UN intervention.

Okay, history lesson (there's gonna be a lot of these), when the US and USSR rolled into Korea, there was a new government already set up, the People's Republic of Korea. It had fought the Japanese during the war, and following Japanese collapse, took power and organized the country. The US, in its zone, overthrew the new government, imported an American-Korean, called him president, and proceeded to help slaughter 100,000 members of the PRK. Border skirmishes between the North and the South were common place and fierce. The day that the North attacked, the South announced that it had captured a North Korean city. North and South Korea are artificial entities. The war was a civil war. No one had to be forced into starting it, and both sides were itching for it.

1951: Tricked Chinese into the Korean War

Right, the Chinese needed to be tricked into intervening in Korea, because having US war planese bombing their side of the border, having the US threaten North Korean dams which provided electricity for Manchuria, the massacres of North Koreans by the RoK army, and MacArthurs threats of invading China weren't enough of an inducement for the Chinese to enter the war on their own.

1953: Invaded East Germany to crush the Berlin Uprising

They didn't invade East Germany, but they did use troops to crush the East Berlin uprising. I'm glad you added this, because I would have left it out, and also all the times that the US used troops to suppress urban uprisings. Now I can tack Detroit, 1967 on.

1957: Invaded Hungaria to crush another uprising

True a dark day for socialism. The workers in Hungary were demanding true socialism. A democratic workers state would have shown the USSR for the farce it was. That's why they crushed it, and that's why NATO stood by and ignored its pleas for help.

1959: Sponsored Castro to overthrow existing Cuban government

You're one of those right-wing nuts who think that every revolt has a KGB agent behind it, aren't you? Do you think the Civil Rights movement was directed from Moscow? What about Rock and Roll? The American peace movement? You don't give people any redit for wanting to end their oppression on their own, do you?

The Communist Party of Cuba was opposed to Castro. The PCC and Castro were at odds until several years after the revolution. In fact, until the Bay of Pigs invasion by the US, Cuba was trying desperately to get along with the US and kept the USSR at bay.

1960s: Massive military aid to Arab countries to fight against Israelis

This is irrelevent and doesn't meet the criteria I set out.

1963-1973: Massive military aid, including thousands of advisors, to North Vietnam to fight against the US

This is irrelevent. In any event, the USSR didn't start the war, and wasnt able to provide that much assistance due to their ships being mined and bombed in Hanoi.

1968: Invaded Czechslovakia to crush the "Prag Spring"

True.

1969: Border clash with China almost lead to nuclear exchange

I'll need proof. AFAIK, all of the border clashes were in the early 60s. Furthermore, neither the USSR nor China have ever threatened to use nuclear weapons against another country. That honor, alone, is given to the US, who is also the only country every to use nuclear weapons on another country.

1979-1989: Invaded Afghansitan

It was not an invasion, since the Soviets were asked in by the Afgani government to help them deal with a CIA sponsored uprising. But it still counts under the criteria I gave.



Okay, let's start with the Soviets, every war, including wars started by their allies.

1917-1918, WWI. They inhereted this war from previous governments and got out of it as soon as th4ey could.

1918-1920, Russian Civil War, the Whites started it, not the Reds.

1918-1920, the Foreign Internvetion, the Allies invade Socialist Russia to strangle the Revolution.

1920-1921, Polish War, the Poles see Russia's weakness as a chance to seize land. They suceed due to Stalin's failure to follow orders.

1923, invasion of the Transcaucasian Republic, Lenin asks Stalin to settle the dispute with their fellow socialist republic (led by Mensheviks). Lenin is diabled due to strokes and Stalin takes an army down and invaded the Republic. Lenin wants Stalin expleed from the party and government, but is unable to do so due to his incapacity.

1930s, Tuva, Stalin seizes the territory of Tuva.

1936-1939, Spanish Civil War, Soviets give a little bit of aid to Spanish Republic and stab Spanish Revolution in back.

1939, Naza-Soviet Partition of Poland, Soviets take back the land they lost in 1921.

1939, Occupation of Baltics and Moldavia, Stalin begins securing his foreward areas in anticipation of a Nazi invasion. Moldavia is recovered from Romania who seized it during the Foreign intervention.

1939-1940, The Winter War, same as above.

1941-1945, The Great Patriotic War, aka WWII. Invaded by Nazis.

1951-1953, The Korean War, Soviets supply North Koreans with war matierals and fighter pilots. They also get bombed near Vladivostok by Allies.

1953, The Berlin Uprising, Soviets crush a woerks revolt in East Berlin.

1956, Hungarian Workers Uprising, Soviets crush uprising.

early 1960s, border clashes with Chinese, not much to be said.

1967, The Six Days War, Soviets send fleet to Eastern Mediterranian to save Arab allies who were attacked by Israel. Israel's finally agreeing to a truce averts nuclear war.

1973, Yom Kippur War, Soviets send fleet to Eastern Mediterranian to save Arab allies who attacked Israel. Israel's finally agreeing to a truce averts nuclear war.

1979-1988, Afganistan, local uprising against freeing women gets sponsorhsip by CIA and begins to threaten government. Government asks for Soviet help, which leads to ten years of brutal, nasty war.

1991, Invasion of Lithuania, USSR rolls in the tanks to stop Lithuanian cecession.

That's seventeen wars and interventions in 85 years. Looks bad for the Soviets, but wait, here comes the US. The list is so long, I'm just gonna put years and dates. Some of these begin before 1917, but they continue past it, so I'm including them


1912-25, Nicaragua

1912-41, China

1914-17, Mexico

1915-34, Haiti

1916-24, Dominican Republic

1917, China

1917-18, WWI

1917-22, Cuba

1918-19, Mexico

1918-20, Panama

1919-20, Soviet Russia

1919, Dalmatia

1919, Turkey

1919, Honduras

1920, China

1920-22, Russia

1921, Panama

1922, Turkey

1922-23, China

1924, Honduras

1924, China

1925, Honduras

1925, Panama

1926, China

1926-1933, Nicaragua

1927, China

That's twenty-eight, and I haven't even gotten out of the 1920s.

1932, China

1933, Cuba

1934, China

1941-45, WWII

1945-60s, China

1940s -50s, Phillipines

1945-53, Korea

1947 - 50s, Greece

1953, Iran

1953-54, Guatemala

1950-73, Vietnam

1955-1973, Cambodia

1957-1973, Laos

1958, Lebanon

1959-63, Haiti

1960, the Congo

1960, Guatelmala

1961-64, Brazil

1960-66, Dominican Republic

1959-present, Cuba

1965, Indonesia

1966, Ghana

1970-73, Uraguay

1964, Algeria

1964-1973, Chile

1964-74, Greece

1964 - 75, Bolivia

1962 - 90s, Guatemala

1966, Ghana

1973 - 75, Australia

1975 - 90s, Angola

1979-84, Grenada

1979 - 1992, Afganistan

1980 - 94, El Salvador

1981 - 89, Libya

1981 - 90, Nicaragua

1980s - present, Peru

1990, Panama

1990 - present, Iraq

1990s - present, Columbia

1994 - present, Haiti

1998 - Sudan

1998 - Afganistan

1999, Yugoslavia

2001 - 2, Afganistan

2002, Phillipines

Oh, I'm sure I forgot some, and I only included successful coup attempts. I count 74 military and CIA interventions abroad. Statisitically, the US is 4.35 times more warlike than the USSR. Now, I'm tossing defensive wars in there, like WWII, but a war's a war.

Now, go find a mirror. Laugh at your naivity.

the list of a healthy state

now if only it was more communistic

Jon Miller

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can we limit this list to those actions with 1000+ battle deaths? Otherwise your Soviet list is heavily stilted to favor one side.

For the most part, I don't know know numbers of dead. I'd have to limit it to post WWII, and that would heavily tilt it in favor of the USSR as well, since most of it's killing was in the 30s.

I think sending your troops into a foreign country and changing the government or forcing them to do something, regardless of whether or not you kill 1000+ humans is still the hallmark of a war-like government. The USSR certainly had the capacity to project military power abroad, but rarely did. They didn't go around overthrowing governments willy nilly. Historically, they are the far less agressive power. Of course, this is only evidence of communist deviousness.

I should note for completeness sake that I left out the Soviet intervention in Mongolia in the early 20s. I just don't know anything about it, except that it happened.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I should note for completeness sake that I left out the Soviet intervention in Mongolia in the early 20s. I just don't know anything about it, except that it happened.

It also looks like you forgot to mention the 48-49 blockade of Berlin along with a few other adventures I'm sure. If we are going to be throwing interventions around willy nilly, we should at least try to be complete about our lists.