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THe B-52H and the nuklear bomb are both very good tools
may they never need to be used again
Jon Miller
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Originally posted by Transcend
Chegnitz, run out of arguments huh? It seems your only argument now is to resort to personal attacks.
I was eating and making a rather lengthy reply in another thread. I'll deal with you by and by.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Originally posted by Transcend
Tingkai, I think you are just jealous that China doesn't have the same stuff.
B-52 is a great tool to keep our country secure and democracy free from the Soviet threat. The hawks in Kremlin would laugh their butt in face of your naive pacifism, Chegnitz. Unfortunately, there were not enough Americans like you so they were unable to gain too many advantages.
I couldn't care less if China had them. After all, I'm Canadian.
As for the B-52 being a great tool. Forget it. The continued service of the B-52 merely reflects the lobbying power of the US Air Force and SAC.
As a platform to deliver nukes, the B-52 is not needed. Subs are the most effective nuke missile carriers. Almost impossible to stop, unlike the B-52.
The B-52 is not needed in its role of carrying cruise missiles. The B-2 is better. The USN can also deliver the same punch more effectively.
For general bombing, the B-2 is better, but this role is being phased out by the development of "smart" weapons. A couple of bombs dropped accurately from, say, an F-18 is more effective than carpet bombing a general area.
So what good is the B-52? It keeps a lot of air bases open and that keeps the politicans happy. It gives the USAF an excuse to have nukes. And it keeps a lot of people employed in the USAF.
The US would get more bangs for the buck and be far better off by retiring these old dogs of war.
I couldn't care less if China had them. After all, I'm Canadian.
As for the B-52 being a great tool. Forget it. The continued service of the B-52 merely reflects the lobbying power of the US Air Force and SAC.
As a platform to deliver nukes, the B-52 is not needed. Subs are the most effective nuke missile carriers. Almost impossible to stop, unlike the B-52.
The B-52 is not needed in its role of carrying cruise missiles. The B-2 is better. The USN can also deliver the same punch more effectively.
For general bombing, the B-2 is better, but this role is being phased out by the development of "smart" weapons. A couple of bombs dropped accurately from, say, an F-18 is more effective than carpet bombing a general area.
So what good is the B-52? It keeps a lot of air bases open and that keeps the politicans happy. It gives the USAF an excuse to have nukes. And it keeps a lot of people employed in the USAF.
The US would get more bangs for the buck and be far better off by retiring these old dogs of war.
Great, first you tell us what an evil beast this plane is, now you think others are even better in killing people....
Great, first you tell us what an evil beast this plane is, now you think others are even better in killing people....
This is fairly simple. The B-52 is a weapon of mass destruction and should not be glorified and it is not an efficient or effective weapon. The US has more effective weapons that can do the jobs that needs to be done while causing fewer civilian deaths.
You are correct. The B-52A is fifty not the H Model. The B-52 still did not fight in Korea. Until Vietnam the B-52 was a Nuc bomber only. They had to convert the D model to non-nuc status to use in Nam. The G and H model where still Nucs until much later (after Nam).
Tools are to be used in moderation. They are neither bad nor good until someone picks them up, with a very few exceptions (like sawed-off shotguns; the good you could do with a sawed-off shot gun escapes me. Weapons of war can be used to protect your country, but not one of those).
I refute it thus!
"Destiny! Destiny! No escaping that for me!"
Originally posted by Transcend
How many wars did USSR fight from 1945 to 1990? Well, here is a partial list:
Let's deal with your list before I create a full accounting of both sides.
1946-1949: Sponsored Chinese Communists in their civil war
Okay, anyone who actually knows anything about the Chinese Revolution knows that continually advised the CCP to make peace with the KMT, to submit to KMT authority, and didn't give the CCP very much aid at all. Stalin spent his entire carreer as General Secretary of the CPSU throttling the life out of revolutions. There was a reason Mao broke with the Comintern in the mid '30s, and it was this break that allowed him to succeed, rather than wind up in a ditch with a KMT bullet in the back of his head.
1948-49: Sponsored communist uprisings in Malaysia, Greece, and Turkey
Yes, everyone knows that people living in dictatorial countries are perfectly content until some Soviet spy comes around and tricks them in to trying to overthrow their government. If it weren't for the Soviet Union, there'd never be any revolutions anywhere
As far as I'm aware, there weren't any Commie uprisings in either Turkey or Malaysia in the late 40s. I could be wrong, but I think I would have heard of them. Greece, however, is another story. Stalin ordered the Greek communists to submit to British and monarchal authority. This resulted in many thousands of them being tortured and murdered. Finally they rebelled, against orders, without Stalin;s help. They were aided by Tito, who had already broken with Stalin at this time.
1950: Forced Kim-IL-Sung into attacking South Korea
Right, he forced Kim to attack South Korea while the USSR was boycotting the UN Security Council because it was such a brilliant idea. After all, why sponsor a war and not allow the other side to fight. That's why the Soviets must not have allowed themselves to veto UN intervention.
Okay, history lesson (there's gonna be a lot of these), when the US and USSR rolled into Korea, there was a new government already set up, the People's Republic of Korea. It had fought the Japanese during the war, and following Japanese collapse, took power and organized the country. The US, in its zone, overthrew the new government, imported an American-Korean, called him president, and proceeded to help slaughter 100,000 members of the PRK. Border skirmishes between the North and the South were common place and fierce. The day that the North attacked, the South announced that it had captured a North Korean city. North and South Korea are artificial entities. The war was a civil war. No one had to be forced into starting it, and both sides were itching for it.
1951: Tricked Chinese into the Korean War
Right, the Chinese needed to be tricked into intervening in Korea, because having US war planese bombing their side of the border, having the US threaten North Korean dams which provided electricity for Manchuria, the massacres of North Koreans by the RoK army, and MacArthurs threats of invading China weren't enough of an inducement for the Chinese to enter the war on their own.
1953: Invaded East Germany to crush the Berlin Uprising
They didn't invade East Germany, but they did use troops to crush the East Berlin uprising. I'm glad you added this, because I would have left it out, and also all the times that the US used troops to suppress urban uprisings. Now I can tack Detroit, 1967 on.
1957: Invaded Hungaria to crush another uprising
True a dark day for socialism. The workers in Hungary were demanding true socialism. A democratic workers state would have shown the USSR for the farce it was. That's why they crushed it, and that's why NATO stood by and ignored its pleas for help.
1959: Sponsored Castro to overthrow existing Cuban government
You're one of those right-wing nuts who think that every revolt has a KGB agent behind it, aren't you? Do you think the Civil Rights movement was directed from Moscow? What about Rock and Roll? The American peace movement? You don't give people any redit for wanting to end their oppression on their own, do you?
The Communist Party of Cuba was opposed to Castro. The PCC and Castro were at odds until several years after the revolution. In fact, until the Bay of Pigs invasion by the US, Cuba was trying desperately to get along with the US and kept the USSR at bay.
1960s: Massive military aid to Arab countries to fight against Israelis
This is irrelevent and doesn't meet the criteria I set out.
1963-1973: Massive military aid, including thousands of advisors, to North Vietnam to fight against the US
This is irrelevent. In any event, the USSR didn't start the war, and wasnt able to provide that much assistance due to their ships being mined and bombed in Hanoi.
1968: Invaded Czechslovakia to crush the "Prag Spring"
True.
1969: Border clash with China almost lead to nuclear exchange
I'll need proof. AFAIK, all of the border clashes were in the early 60s. Furthermore, neither the USSR nor China have ever threatened to use nuclear weapons against another country. That honor, alone, is given to the US, who is also the only country every to use nuclear weapons on another country.
1979-1989: Invaded Afghansitan
It was not an invasion, since the Soviets were asked in by the Afgani government to help them deal with a CIA sponsored uprising. But it still counts under the criteria I gave.
Okay, let's start with the Soviets, every war, including wars started by their allies.
1917-1918, WWI. They inhereted this war from previous governments and got out of it as soon as th4ey could.
1918-1920, Russian Civil War, the Whites started it, not the Reds.
1918-1920, the Foreign Internvetion, the Allies invade Socialist Russia to strangle the Revolution.
1920-1921, Polish War, the Poles see Russia's weakness as a chance to seize land. They suceed due to Stalin's failure to follow orders.
1923, invasion of the Transcaucasian Republic, Lenin asks Stalin to settle the dispute with their fellow socialist republic (led by Mensheviks). Lenin is diabled due to strokes and Stalin takes an army down and invaded the Republic. Lenin wants Stalin expleed from the party and government, but is unable to do so due to his incapacity.
1930s, Tuva, Stalin seizes the territory of Tuva.
1936-1939, Spanish Civil War, Soviets give a little bit of aid to Spanish Republic and stab Spanish Revolution in back.
1939, Naza-Soviet Partition of Poland, Soviets take back the land they lost in 1921.
1939, Occupation of Baltics and Moldavia, Stalin begins securing his foreward areas in anticipation of a Nazi invasion. Moldavia is recovered from Romania who seized it during the Foreign intervention.
1939-1940, The Winter War, same as above.
1941-1945, The Great Patriotic War, aka WWII. Invaded by Nazis.
1951-1953, The Korean War, Soviets supply North Koreans with war matierals and fighter pilots. They also get bombed near Vladivostok by Allies.
1953, The Berlin Uprising, Soviets crush a woerks revolt in East Berlin.
early 1960s, border clashes with Chinese, not much to be said.
1967, The Six Days War, Soviets send fleet to Eastern Mediterranian to save Arab allies who were attacked by Israel. Israel's finally agreeing to a truce averts nuclear war.
1973, Yom Kippur War, Soviets send fleet to Eastern Mediterranian to save Arab allies who attacked Israel. Israel's finally agreeing to a truce averts nuclear war.
1979-1988, Afganistan, local uprising against freeing women gets sponsorhsip by CIA and begins to threaten government. Government asks for Soviet help, which leads to ten years of brutal, nasty war.
1991, Invasion of Lithuania, USSR rolls in the tanks to stop Lithuanian cecession.
That's seventeen wars and interventions in 85 years. Looks bad for the Soviets, but wait, here comes the US. The list is so long, I'm just gonna put years and dates. Some of these begin before 1917, but they continue past it, so I'm including them
1912-25, Nicaragua
1912-41, China
1914-17, Mexico
1915-34, Haiti
1916-24, Dominican Republic
1917, China
1917-18, WWI
1917-22, Cuba
1918-19, Mexico
1918-20, Panama
1919-20, Soviet Russia
1919, Dalmatia
1919, Turkey
1919, Honduras
1920, China
1920-22, Russia
1921, Panama
1922, Turkey
1922-23, China
1924, Honduras
1924, China
1925, Honduras
1925, Panama
1926, China
1926-1933, Nicaragua
1927, China
That's twenty-eight, and I haven't even gotten out of the 1920s.
1932, China
1933, Cuba
1934, China
1941-45, WWII
1945-60s, China
1940s -50s, Phillipines
1945-53, Korea
1947 - 50s, Greece
1953, Iran
1953-54, Guatemala
1950-73, Vietnam
1955-1973, Cambodia
1957-1973, Laos
1958, Lebanon
1959-63, Haiti
1960, the Congo
1960, Guatelmala
1961-64, Brazil
1960-66, Dominican Republic
1959-present, Cuba
1965, Indonesia
1966, Ghana
1970-73, Uraguay
1964, Algeria
1964-1973, Chile
1964-74, Greece
1964 - 75, Bolivia
1962 - 90s, Guatemala
1966, Ghana
1973 - 75, Australia
1975 - 90s, Angola
1979-84, Grenada
1979 - 1992, Afganistan
1980 - 94, El Salvador
1981 - 89, Libya
1981 - 90, Nicaragua
1980s - present, Peru
1990, Panama
1990 - present, Iraq
1990s - present, Columbia
1994 - present, Haiti
1998 - Sudan
1998 - Afganistan
1999, Yugoslavia
2001 - 2, Afganistan
2002, Phillipines
Oh, I'm sure I forgot some, and I only included successful coup attempts. I count 74 military and CIA interventions abroad. Statisitically, the US is 4.35 times more warlike than the USSR. Now, I'm tossing defensive wars in there, like WWII, but a war's a war.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Can we limit this list to those actions with 1000+ battle deaths? Otherwise your Soviet list is heavily stilted to favor one side.
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
Let's deal with your list before I create a full accounting of both sides.
1946-1949: Sponsored Chinese Communists in their civil war
Okay, anyone who actually knows anything about the Chinese Revolution knows that continually advised the CCP to make peace with the KMT, to submit to KMT authority, and didn't give the CCP very much aid at all. Stalin spent his entire carreer as General Secretary of the CPSU throttling the life out of revolutions. There was a reason Mao broke with the Comintern in the mid '30s, and it was this break that allowed him to succeed, rather than wind up in a ditch with a KMT bullet in the back of his head.
1948-49: Sponsored communist uprisings in Malaysia, Greece, and Turkey
Yes, everyone knows that people living in dictatorial countries are perfectly content until some Soviet spy comes around and tricks them in to trying to overthrow their government. If it weren't for the Soviet Union, there'd never be any revolutions anywhere
As far as I'm aware, there weren't any Commie uprisings in either Turkey or Malaysia in the late 40s. I could be wrong, but I think I would have heard of them. Greece, however, is another story. Stalin ordered the Greek communists to submit to British and monarchal authority. This resulted in many thousands of them being tortured and murdered. Finally they rebelled, against orders, without Stalin;s help. They were aided by Tito, who had already broken with Stalin at this time.
1950: Forced Kim-IL-Sung into attacking South Korea
Right, he forced Kim to attack South Korea while the USSR was boycotting the UN Security Council because it was such a brilliant idea. After all, why sponsor a war and not allow the other side to fight. That's why the Soviets must not have allowed themselves to veto UN intervention.
Okay, history lesson (there's gonna be a lot of these), when the US and USSR rolled into Korea, there was a new government already set up, the People's Republic of Korea. It had fought the Japanese during the war, and following Japanese collapse, took power and organized the country. The US, in its zone, overthrew the new government, imported an American-Korean, called him president, and proceeded to help slaughter 100,000 members of the PRK. Border skirmishes between the North and the South were common place and fierce. The day that the North attacked, the South announced that it had captured a North Korean city. North and South Korea are artificial entities. The war was a civil war. No one had to be forced into starting it, and both sides were itching for it.
1951: Tricked Chinese into the Korean War
Right, the Chinese needed to be tricked into intervening in Korea, because having US war planese bombing their side of the border, having the US threaten North Korean dams which provided electricity for Manchuria, the massacres of North Koreans by the RoK army, and MacArthurs threats of invading China weren't enough of an inducement for the Chinese to enter the war on their own.
1953: Invaded East Germany to crush the Berlin Uprising
They didn't invade East Germany, but they did use troops to crush the East Berlin uprising. I'm glad you added this, because I would have left it out, and also all the times that the US used troops to suppress urban uprisings. Now I can tack Detroit, 1967 on.
1957: Invaded Hungaria to crush another uprising
True a dark day for socialism. The workers in Hungary were demanding true socialism. A democratic workers state would have shown the USSR for the farce it was. That's why they crushed it, and that's why NATO stood by and ignored its pleas for help.
1959: Sponsored Castro to overthrow existing Cuban government
You're one of those right-wing nuts who think that every revolt has a KGB agent behind it, aren't you? Do you think the Civil Rights movement was directed from Moscow? What about Rock and Roll? The American peace movement? You don't give people any redit for wanting to end their oppression on their own, do you?
The Communist Party of Cuba was opposed to Castro. The PCC and Castro were at odds until several years after the revolution. In fact, until the Bay of Pigs invasion by the US, Cuba was trying desperately to get along with the US and kept the USSR at bay.
1960s: Massive military aid to Arab countries to fight against Israelis
This is irrelevent and doesn't meet the criteria I set out.
1963-1973: Massive military aid, including thousands of advisors, to North Vietnam to fight against the US
This is irrelevent. In any event, the USSR didn't start the war, and wasnt able to provide that much assistance due to their ships being mined and bombed in Hanoi.
1968: Invaded Czechslovakia to crush the "Prag Spring"
True.
1969: Border clash with China almost lead to nuclear exchange
I'll need proof. AFAIK, all of the border clashes were in the early 60s. Furthermore, neither the USSR nor China have ever threatened to use nuclear weapons against another country. That honor, alone, is given to the US, who is also the only country every to use nuclear weapons on another country.
1979-1989: Invaded Afghansitan
It was not an invasion, since the Soviets were asked in by the Afgani government to help them deal with a CIA sponsored uprising. But it still counts under the criteria I gave.
Okay, let's start with the Soviets, every war, including wars started by their allies.
1917-1918, WWI. They inhereted this war from previous governments and got out of it as soon as th4ey could.
1918-1920, Russian Civil War, the Whites started it, not the Reds.
1918-1920, the Foreign Internvetion, the Allies invade Socialist Russia to strangle the Revolution.
1920-1921, Polish War, the Poles see Russia's weakness as a chance to seize land. They suceed due to Stalin's failure to follow orders.
1923, invasion of the Transcaucasian Republic, Lenin asks Stalin to settle the dispute with their fellow socialist republic (led by Mensheviks). Lenin is diabled due to strokes and Stalin takes an army down and invaded the Republic. Lenin wants Stalin expleed from the party and government, but is unable to do so due to his incapacity.
1930s, Tuva, Stalin seizes the territory of Tuva.
1936-1939, Spanish Civil War, Soviets give a little bit of aid to Spanish Republic and stab Spanish Revolution in back.
1939, Naza-Soviet Partition of Poland, Soviets take back the land they lost in 1921.
1939, Occupation of Baltics and Moldavia, Stalin begins securing his foreward areas in anticipation of a Nazi invasion. Moldavia is recovered from Romania who seized it during the Foreign intervention.
1939-1940, The Winter War, same as above.
1941-1945, The Great Patriotic War, aka WWII. Invaded by Nazis.
1951-1953, The Korean War, Soviets supply North Koreans with war matierals and fighter pilots. They also get bombed near Vladivostok by Allies.
1953, The Berlin Uprising, Soviets crush a woerks revolt in East Berlin.
early 1960s, border clashes with Chinese, not much to be said.
1967, The Six Days War, Soviets send fleet to Eastern Mediterranian to save Arab allies who were attacked by Israel. Israel's finally agreeing to a truce averts nuclear war.
1973, Yom Kippur War, Soviets send fleet to Eastern Mediterranian to save Arab allies who attacked Israel. Israel's finally agreeing to a truce averts nuclear war.
1979-1988, Afganistan, local uprising against freeing women gets sponsorhsip by CIA and begins to threaten government. Government asks for Soviet help, which leads to ten years of brutal, nasty war.
1991, Invasion of Lithuania, USSR rolls in the tanks to stop Lithuanian cecession.
That's seventeen wars and interventions in 85 years. Looks bad for the Soviets, but wait, here comes the US. The list is so long, I'm just gonna put years and dates. Some of these begin before 1917, but they continue past it, so I'm including them
1912-25, Nicaragua
1912-41, China
1914-17, Mexico
1915-34, Haiti
1916-24, Dominican Republic
1917, China
1917-18, WWI
1917-22, Cuba
1918-19, Mexico
1918-20, Panama
1919-20, Soviet Russia
1919, Dalmatia
1919, Turkey
1919, Honduras
1920, China
1920-22, Russia
1921, Panama
1922, Turkey
1922-23, China
1924, Honduras
1924, China
1925, Honduras
1925, Panama
1926, China
1926-1933, Nicaragua
1927, China
That's twenty-eight, and I haven't even gotten out of the 1920s.
1932, China
1933, Cuba
1934, China
1941-45, WWII
1945-60s, China
1940s -50s, Phillipines
1945-53, Korea
1947 - 50s, Greece
1953, Iran
1953-54, Guatemala
1950-73, Vietnam
1955-1973, Cambodia
1957-1973, Laos
1958, Lebanon
1959-63, Haiti
1960, the Congo
1960, Guatelmala
1961-64, Brazil
1960-66, Dominican Republic
1959-present, Cuba
1965, Indonesia
1966, Ghana
1970-73, Uraguay
1964, Algeria
1964-1973, Chile
1964-74, Greece
1964 - 75, Bolivia
1962 - 90s, Guatemala
1966, Ghana
1973 - 75, Australia
1975 - 90s, Angola
1979-84, Grenada
1979 - 1992, Afganistan
1980 - 94, El Salvador
1981 - 89, Libya
1981 - 90, Nicaragua
1980s - present, Peru
1990, Panama
1990 - present, Iraq
1990s - present, Columbia
1994 - present, Haiti
1998 - Sudan
1998 - Afganistan
1999, Yugoslavia
2001 - 2, Afganistan
2002, Phillipines
Oh, I'm sure I forgot some, and I only included successful coup attempts. I count 74 military and CIA interventions abroad. Statisitically, the US is 4.35 times more warlike than the USSR. Now, I'm tossing defensive wars in there, like WWII, but a war's a war.
Now, go find a mirror. Laugh at your naivity.
the list of a healthy state
now if only it was more communistic
Jon Miller
Jon Miller- I AM.CANADIAN
GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.
Originally posted by DinoDoc
Can we limit this list to those actions with 1000+ battle deaths? Otherwise your Soviet list is heavily stilted to favor one side.
For the most part, I don't know know numbers of dead. I'd have to limit it to post WWII, and that would heavily tilt it in favor of the USSR as well, since most of it's killing was in the 30s.
I think sending your troops into a foreign country and changing the government or forcing them to do something, regardless of whether or not you kill 1000+ humans is still the hallmark of a war-like government. The USSR certainly had the capacity to project military power abroad, but rarely did. They didn't go around overthrowing governments willy nilly. Historically, they are the far less agressive power. Of course, this is only evidence of communist deviousness.
I should note for completeness sake that I left out the Soviet intervention in Mongolia in the early 20s. I just don't know anything about it, except that it happened.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Originally posted by chegitz guevara
I should note for completeness sake that I left out the Soviet intervention in Mongolia in the early 20s. I just don't know anything about it, except that it happened.
It also looks like you forgot to mention the 48-49 blockade of Berlin along with a few other adventures I'm sure. If we are going to be throwing interventions around willy nilly, we should at least try to be complete about our lists.
I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio
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