Israil oversteps the mark

[Imran Siddiqui]

Because one side is the oppressed and the other is the oppressor.

EAT IT

Basically you'll have to open your eyes to see there are two standards. One of the colonial power, and one for the colonized. In history, the colonized have been seen as being able to do things that they colonizer would get looked down for. For the simple reason, the colonizer is simply that... running a place where the people don't want them.

[DinoDoc]

Nonresponsive answer.

Basically you'll have to open your eyes to see there are two standards.

Based on what? Every side in this conflict considers itself to be in the right and you've done a good job of showing that no amount of logical arguements will be able to shake that belief in the slightest. In war it is actions that speak louder than all the cries of victimhood in the world.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Nonresponsive answer.

Too bad if you don't like it. Deal.

In war it is actions that speak louder than all the cries of victimhood in the world.

Exactly (of course I mean it for the Israelis )

[Natan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Because one side is the oppressed and the other is the oppressor.

EAT IT

Basically you'll have to open your eyes to see there are two standards. One of the colonial power, and one for the colonized.

Not true. For example, I don't see a double standard for Basque separatists, or Kurdish separatists, or Chechen guerillas or Irgun fighters as opposed to their opponents. There's actually just a second standard for trendy left wing causes, which the Basques and the Chechens haven't quite become yet.

In history, the colonized have been seen as being able to do things that they colonizer would get looked down for. For the simple reason, the colonizer is simply that... running a place where the people don't want them.

This is the same sort of massive generalization that is used to justify targetting civillians in every case - the idea that millions of people just going about their business are somehow "colonizers" or "terrorists" or "traitors" or "enemies of the [insert name] people."

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Too bad if you don't like it. Deal.

Whatever. If your mass of illogic helps you get through the day, so be it.

Exactly (of course I mean it for the Israelis )

I fail to see how you can apply a general statement, which you agree with, to your disfavored side of the conflict and not the other. It looks like your only seeking to hide your own desire to perpetuate a cycle of murder and violence on civilians.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Not true. For example, I don't see a double standard for Basque separatists, or Kurdish separatists, or Chechen guerillas or Irgun fighters as opposed to their opponents. There's actually just a second standard for trendy left wing causes, which the Basques and the Chechens haven't quite become yet.

You haven't? Kurdish separatists and Chechens really haven't been yelled at. Remember most of Europe and the US critiqued Russia for retaliating against the Chechans (which is why they accused us of hypocracy). Remember we looked more fondly on the Kosovar rebels than the Serbs. People look on people fighting for a homeland much better (maybe that is a result of Israel getting a homeland ).

This is the same sort of massive generalization that is used to justify targetting civillians in every case - the idea that millions of people just going about their business are somehow "colonizers" or "terrorists" or "traitors" or "enemies of the [insert name] people."

And Western nations have used it often. For example, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, etc, etc, etc.

The powerful are held to different standards. I mean look at how the US is held verses... Chad. Chad can get away with things the US never would.

I fail to see how you can apply a general statement, which you agree with, to your disfavored side of the conflict and not the other. It looks like your only seeking to hide your own desire to perpetuate a cycle of murder and violence on civilians.

As soon as a Palestinian state, incorporating the West Bank and Gaza is formed, totally soverign over that area, then I'll be the first to decry government sponsered terrorism. Until that time, it the way to fight back against the colonials.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by CyberGnu

IT IS NEVER THE VICTIMS TASK TO WORRY ABOUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF RESISTING AGGRESSION.

(...)

A) An aggressor should be fought with whatever it takes to end the aggression.

B) Any act minimizing casualties among the victims are inherently justified.

C) Minimizing casulaties on the aggressors side is the responsibility of the aggressor, NOT THE VICTIM.

I see...

The thing is, in just about any conflict in the real world, there are both aggressors and victims on both sides.

So, are you saying that nobody is responsible for anything and that we should basically just go ahead and nuke ourselves off the face of the planet?

If not, then I don't see how to apply your logic to the real world, since pretty much anyone can claim to be a victim of something.

So, any action is inherently justified and nobody is responsible for the consequences??

[axi]

This was a really bad time for my PC to fail. I am spending my days watching the news from the TV and anguishing for a little bit of time online, now and then. Nothing compares to the internet regarding world news.

I haven't read this monster thread, so I haven't much to say. I hope reality has smacked some people on the head hard enough to pierce the shroud of misinformation. The people here are virtually laughing at the bias of the american media and government. As for the Israelis, people are just speechless seeing the cynicism of the Israeli side, both government and people.

As I said, i haven't much to say. Nor do I think that anything I can read here from any apologist of the aggression will mean anything to me. Actions speak for themselves. Just do not forget Jenin....

DON'T FORGET JENIN

[Sirotnikov]

I shall never forget hundreds of terrorists that mined and boobytrapped hospitals, ambulances, schools and took families hostage even though the Israelis allowed people to flee in advance.

I shall never forget booby trapped houses that were destroyed by the Israelis. I shall never forget explosive laboratories which were blown up by the Israelis. I shall never forget secret passages from laboratories to schools and hospitals.

I shall never forget 4 buildings that were boobytrapped and then collapsed on Israeli soldiers after which palestinian gunmen shot dead those who weren't killed by the blast or burried under the rubble.


Axi, your information sites have proved to suck ass. Anyone can post anything to them and usually that's exactly what they do.

Furthermore, if you had any ****ing idea, you'd know that the area Israel demolished is only a small part of the camp.

But you choose to believe pathetical liars, because your communist sources taught you to belive such lies.

The point is, you've become what you hate so much - your mind is ruled by a small group of people with their own interests.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by axi
This was a really bad time for my PC to fail. I am spending my days watching the news from the TV and anguishing for a little bit of time online, now and then. Nothing compares to the internet regarding world news.

I haven't read this monster thread, so I haven't much to say. I hope reality has smacked some people on the head hard enough to pierce the shroud of misinformation. The people here are virtually laughing at the bias of the american media and government. As for the Israelis, people are just speechless seeing the cynicism of the Israeli side, both government and people.

As I said, i haven't much to say. Nor do I think that anything I can read here from any apologist of the aggression will mean anything to me. Actions speak for themselves. Just do not forget Jenin....

DON'T FORGET JENIN

Yeah. Go out and kill more Israelies. That will surely make it better.

[axi]

Israel has crushed the mark under it's jack-boot

OK, now you are calling all the media (radio, TV, newspapers) in my country liars? They may lie about many internal news, but why should they lie about the Middle East? Why should the whole damn Europe cry at the top of their voices that Israel is commiting a genocide if this wasn't true?

I am surpised that you choose to counter me in this way. As I said, nothing you can say really gets to me any more.

I just hope that you have not the same sense of humor with that butcher you have for a PM (yes I mean Sharon). When I saw how he mocked Colin Powell in front of all the media after their meeting some days ago, I froze on my chair.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You haven't? Kurdish separatists and Chechens really haven't been yelled at.

They don't make it their business to kill civillians. Although the Chechens were criticized when they started sponsoring terrorism in Russia.

Remember most of Europe and the US critiqued Russia for retaliating against the Chechans (which is why they accused us of hypocracy).

I don't recall the US doing so, but even then, our criticism was of the manner in which Russia was fighting the Chechen revolt, not of the Russian occupation of Chechneya.

Remember we looked more fondly on the Kosovar rebels than the Serbs.

That mostly had to do with the fact that the Albanians were being exterminated, or at least, so we thought. For example, we looked a lot less favorably on Serbs fighting for independence in Knin than on the Croats trying to crush them.

People look on people fighting for a homeland much better (maybe that is a result of Israel getting a homeland ).

Only some foolish and deluded people do that.

And Western nations have used it often. For example, Hiroshima, Nagasaki, Dresden, etc, etc, etc.

Yes, and you've just named the three actions of the allied powers which are widely criticized.

The powerful are held to different standards. I mean look at how the US is held verses... Chad. Chad can get away with things the US never would.

Since you haven't responded to the Basque example, I assume you concede that point. Here's a few more examples of non celeberated "liberation" movements: Kashmiri rebels, Tamil Tigers, Rwandan Interahamwe and Russians in "Trans-Dniester."

As soon as a Palestinian state, incorporating the West Bank and Gaza is formed, totally soverign over that area, then I'll be the first to decry government sponsered terrorism. Until that time, it the way to fight back against the colonials.

So you think the Stern Gang's anti-British terrorism was good?

[Sprayber]

Re: Israel has crushed the mark under it's jack-boot

Originally posted by axi
OK, now you are calling all the media (radio, TV, newspapers) in my country liars? They may lie about many internal news, but why should they lie about the Middle East? Why should the whole damn Europe cry at the top of their voices that Israel is commiting a genocide if this wasn't true?

I am surpised that you choose to counter me in this way. As I said, nothing you can say really gets to me any more.

I just hope that you have not the same sense of humor with that butcher you have for a PM (yes I mean Sharon). When I saw how he mocked Colin Powell in front of all the media after their meeting some days ago, I froze on my chair.

In your hatred for the Israelies, have you ever just once stopped to think that the Pals have in anyway contributed to the feelings that might caused this. Not that justifies it, but then again how do you justify murder of Israelies?

[ZoboZeWarrior]

It's difficult to judge.
In one side, Israeli army block any journalist. They want clearly that no non-friend eyes see what happens.
In other side, I believe hardly Israeli army making a genocid.
I prefere to wait in order have more information. We have known lot of fake genocid in recent years.

But I 'm still thinking that such acts will not remove pals terrorist groups and will worsen their forces. I considere that sharon policy make more bloody the pals terro activities.

[DinoDoc]

Re: Re: Israel has crushed the mark under it's jack-boot

Originally posted by Sprayber
Not that justifies it, but then again how do you justify murder of Israelies?

Probably the sameway most of Europe & Imran does. They view Israel as the oppressor and as such the Palestinians are entitled to do whatever they wish.

As for this little gem by axi:

Why should the whole damn Europe cry at the top of their voices that Israel is commiting a genocide if this wasn't true?

Probably because it cleanses them of any lingering Holocaust guilt to believe that that Jews would perpetuate genocide. That's also the reason that you've seen the word Nazi bandied about the Continent so freely lately wrt Isael.