TROLL > AntiSemitism > AntiPalistinianism ! Did the Jews learn from WWII?

[KrazyHorse]

Under international laws set in 1946 a conquering nation cannot pick and choose which residents of conquered territory are acceptable based on ethnicity or religion.

[Lincoln]

Why was there no mention of antisemitism when Israel was being attacked by Palestinian suicide bombers? Can the Palestinians be antsemitic or can only the Jews be anti Palestinian?

Do you people that compare the Jews to Hitler ever compare the Palestians to him when they specifically target Jews simply because they are Jews? When the Jews were oppressed in Nazi Germany and Europe did they ever attack innocent civilians because of their oppression?

Do Palestians really like Jews? Or do they simply kill them because they are "oppressed"? Do the Jews kill the Palestinians because they love to oppress them or do they hate them for simply being Palestinians?

Is it possible that Europe is again manifesting their traditional antisemitism that was already largely in place when Hitler took it to an extreme? I think that the history lesson that is not being learned is not that the Jews are opressors but rather that the same old antisemitism that was in place before ww2 is now again showing that it is alive and well in the so called civilized world.

Why don't you Jew-haters tell us what you would do if suicide bombers regularly blew themselves up killing yout wives and children in the process. Please tell us what France would do if that happened. What would Australia do? New Zealand? Yes antisemitism is alive and well along with the blindness that goes with it.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Thanks for the admission but tell me about today. Do these millions of Palestinian refugees have a right of return to Israel? Can they reclaim their homes and property?

Did they suddenly decide they don't hate Israel?

Read my post answering KH

No, but you are repsonsible for letting those refugees and their decendents from Israel return, if that's what they choose. It's their right to return home, and Israel has no right under international law to keep them out. It does have the power to do so, but we are arguing about morality.

I repeat

In 1949, Israel offered to allow families that had been separated during the war to return, to release refugee accounts frozen in Israeli banks (eventually released in 1953), to pay compensation for abandoned lands and to repatriate 100,000 refugees.

- Terence Prittie, "Middle East Refugees," in Michael Curtis, et al., The Palestinians, (NJ: Transaction Books, 1975), pp. 66-67.
(oops, I quoted the wrong book last time)

And:

During the years that Israel controlled the Gaza Strip, a consistent effort was made to get the Palestinians into permanent housing. The Palestinians opposed the idea because the frustrated and bitter inhabitants of the camps provided the various terrorist factions with their manpower. Moreover, the Arab states routinely pushed for the adoption of UN resolutions demanding that Israel desist from the removal of Palestinian refugees from camps in Gaza and the West Bank. They preferred to keep the Palestinians as symbols of Israeli "oppression."

And

While Jewish refugees from Arab countries received no international assistance, Palestinians received millions of dollars through UNRWA. Initially, the United States contributed $25 million and Israel nearly $3 million. The total Arab pledges amounted to approximately $600,000. For the first 20 years, the United States provided more than two-thirds of the funds, while the Arab states continued to contribute a tiny fraction. Israel donated more funds to UNRWA than most Arab states. The Saudis did not match Israel's contribution until 1973; Kuwait and Libya, not until 1980. As recently as 1994, Israel gave more to UNRWA than all Arab countries except Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Morocco.

The United States is still by far the organization's largest contributor, donating more than $80 million, approximately 28 percent of the organization's $287 million in receipts in 1999. By contrast, Saudi Arabia contributed, $5.8 million, Kuwait $2.6 million, the U.A.E. $1 million, Oman $25,000 and Egypt $10,000. Israel and the other host countries make their contributions in kind rather than cash and Israel has dramatically reduced its assistance since transferring responsibility of the territories to the Palestinian Authority.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Under international laws set in 1946 a conquering nation cannot pick and choose which residents of conquered territory are acceptable based on ethnicity or religion.

that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so
- Resolution 194 on December 11, 1948

We are basing it on the fact that they hate us.

[KrazyHorse]

Why don't you Jew-haters...

I find this characterisation offensive. Until you can find where I've claimed that the murder of Jews is any more acceptable than the murder of any other people I'd suggest you refrain from applying it again.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
After 50 years of squalid living, not to mention having no rights and being under threat of Israeli terrorism and oppression, I'd be less inclined to live peacefully. It is a problem of Israel's own making.

Is Isreal really to blame for thier squalid living given the fact that the Arab countries, I'm thinking mainly of those with oil revenues, have more than enough resources to integrate them into thier societies.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov


that refugees wishing to return to their homes and live at peace with their neighbors should be permitted to do so
- Resolution 194 on December 11, 1948

We are basing it on the fact that they hate us.

Who is "they"?

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes, and if Israel hadn't dragged its feet for 50+ years, maybe they would be able to live at peace with their neighbors. After 50 years of squalid living, not to mention having no rights and being under threat of Israeli terrorism and oppression, I'd be less inclined to live peacefully. It is a problem of Israel's own making.

Let's see if Israel could possibly return the refugees earlier:

In the Arab world, the refugees were viewed as a potential fifth-column within Israel. As one Lebanese paper wrote:

The return of the refugees should create a large Arab majority that would serve as the most effective means of reviving the Arab character of Palestine, while forming a powerful fifth-column for the day of revenge and reckoning.[54]

The Arabs believed the return of the refugees would virtually guarantee the destruction of Israel, a sentiment expressed by Egyptian Foreign Minister Muhammad Salah al-Din:

It is well-known and understood that the Arabs, in demanding the return of the refugees to Palestine, mean their return as masters of the Homeland and not as slaves. With a greater clarity, they mean the liquidation of the State of Israel (Al-Misri, October 11, 1949).

The plight of the refugees remained unchanged after the Suez War. In fact, even the rhetoric stayed the same. In 1957, the Refugee Conference at Homs, Syria, passed a resolution stating:

Any discussion aimed at a solution of the Palestine problem which will not be based on ensuring the refugees' right to annihilate Israel will be regarded as a desecration of the Arab people and an act of treason (Beirut al Massa, July 15, 1957).

A parallel can be drawn to the time of the American Revolution, during which many colonists who were loyal to England fled to Canada. The British wanted he newly formed republic to allow the loyalists to return to claim their property. Benjamin Franklin rejected this suggestion in a letter to Richard Oswald, the British negotiator, dated November 26, 1782:

Your ministers require that we should receive again into our bosom those who have been our bitterest enemies and restore their properties who have destroyed ours: and this while the wounds they have given us are still bleeding![55]

54 - Lebanese newspaper, Al Said, (April 6, 1950), quoted in Prittie in Curtis, p. 69.
55 - The Writings of Benjamin Franklin, (NY: The Macmillan Company, 1905), p. 626.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Did they suddenly decide they don't hate Israel?

If your government gave them back their homes and their land they might stop hating you

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Yes, executed. Like at Song My (My Lai). First there was a battle, then afterwards, there was a massacre. And while you are so quick to talk about the Red Cross being escorted through, it is that very Red Cross observer who is the one who told the world about the massacre.

How could he have told the world about the massacare if he was invited after it?
I think he jumped to some rash decisions.

Also :
Surprisingly, after the “massacre,” the Irgun escorted a representative of the Red Cross through the town and held a press conference. The New York Times' subsequent description of the battle was essentially the same as Begin's. The Times said more than 200 Arabs were killed, 40 captured and 70 women and children were released. No hint of a massacre appeared in the report.

How come the Times didn't report a massacare if the Red Cross has been there?

I think someone has made an attempt to rewrite history after the fact. :/

I do agree that some civilians were shot no purpose.

However it was far from a planned massacare.

What is true is that some Arab fighters disguised themselves as women. One of them, approached an Israeli and shot him. After which the Israelis freaked and began shooting every person that got near them.

But It wasn't that much.

It's hard to believe that only 13 dead fighters (compared to 107 civilians), as Beit Zeit university would have us believe could have injured 37 Israelis, and kill 4.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
Who is "they"?

Pal refugees.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
If your government gave them back their homes and their land they might stop hating you

re-read my post, just above your own.

Plus read http://www.imra.org http://www.pmw.org.il on - how hate is being perpetuated in Palestinian schools and media.

[Lincoln]

"I find this characterisation offensive. Until you can find where I've claimed that the murder of Jews is any more acceptable than the murder of any other people I'd suggest you refrain from applying it again."

I certainly was not referring to you. I would however appreciate it if all of the people who have nothing good to say about Israel and excuse every act of the Palestianians as a response to "opression" would answer the questions I posed.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov

Pal refugees.

And how do you know that none of them would be willing to live in peace?

[Sirotnikov]

Is Isreal really to blame for thier squalid living given the fact that the Arab countries?

Jordan was the only Arab country to welcome the Palestinians and grant them citizenship (to this day Jordan is the only Arab country where Palestinians as a group can become citizens). King Abdullah considered the Palestinian Arabs and Jordanians one people. By 1950, he annexed the West Bank and forbade the use of the term Palestine in official documents.*

* - Speech to Parliament, April 24, 1950, Abdallah memoirs, p. 13; Aaron Miller, The Arab States and the Palestine Question, (DC: Center for Strategic and International Studies, 1986), p. 29.

Although demographic figures indicated ample room for settlement existed in Syria, Damascus refused to consider accepting any refugees, except those who might refuse repatriation. Syria also declined to resettle 85,000 refugees in 1952-54, though it had been offered international funds to pay for the project. Iraq was also expected to accept a large number of refugees, but proved unwilling. Lebanon insisted it had no room for the Palestinians. In 1950, the UN tried to resettle 150,000 refugees from Gaza in Libya, but was rebuffed by Egypt.

After the 1948 war, Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip and its more than 200,000 inhabitants, but refused to allow the Palestinians into Egypt or permit them to move elsewhere. Egypt’s handling of Palestinians in Gaza was so bad Saudi Arabian radio compared Nasser’ regime in Gaza to Hitler’s rule in occupied Europe in World War II.*

* - 5Isi Liebler, The Case For Israel, (Australia: The Globe Press, 1972), p. 48.

In 1952, the UNWRA set up a fund of $200 million to provide homes and jobs for the refugees, but it went untouched.

The treatment of the refugees in the decade following their displacement was best summed up by a former director of UNRWA, Ralph Garroway, in August 1958: "The Arab States do not want to solve the refugee problem. They want to keep it as an open sore, as an affront to the United Nations and as a weapon against Israel. Arab leaders don't give a damn whether the refugees live or die."*

* - Terence Prittie, "Middle East Refugees," in Michael Curtis, et al., The Palestinians, (NJ: Transaction Books, 1975), , p. 55.

Little has changed in succeeding years. Arab governments have frequently offered jobs, housing, land and other benefits to Arabs and non-Arabs, excluding Palestinians. For example, Saudi Arabia chose not to use unemployed Palestinian refugees to alleviate its labor shortage in the late 1970's and early 1980's. Instead, thousands of South Koreans and other Asians were recruited to fill jobs.

The situation grew even worse in the wake of the Gulf War. Kuwait, which employed large numbers of Palestinians but denied them citizenship, expelled more than 300,000 of them. "If people pose a security threat, as a sovereign country we have the right to exclude anyone we don't want," said Kuwaiti Ambassador to the United States, Saud Nasir Al-Sabah (Jerusalem Report, June 27, 1991).

Today, Palestine refugees in Lebanon do not have social and civil rights, and have very limited access to public health or educational facilities. The majority relies entirely on UNRWA as the sole provider of education, health and relief and social services. Considered foreigners, Palestine refugees are prohibited by law from working in more than 70 trades and professions. (UNRWA)

The Palestinian refugees held the UN responsible for ameliorating their condition; nevertheless, many Palestinians were unhappy with the treatment they were receiving from their Arab brethren. Some, like Palestinian nationalist leader Musa Alami were incredulous: "It is shameful that the Arab governments should prevent the Arab refugees from working in their countries and shut the doors in their faces and imprison them in camps."* Most refugees, however, focused their discontentment on "the Zionists," whom they blamed for their predicament rather than the vanquished Arab armies.

* - Musa Alami, "The Lesson of Palestine," Middle East Journal, (October 1949), p. 386