TROLL > AntiSemitism > AntiPalistinianism ! Did the Jews learn from WWII?

[Alexander's Horse]

Well what do you call Gaza if not a ghetto? The Israeli's even shut it off whenever they are unhappy with the inhabitants. Its bigger than the Warsaw ghetto.

And what is the difference between a nazi and a zionist? They are both extreme nationalists and territorial expansionists based on race.

[Grrr]

My Condiments Exactly - AH

[MichaeltheGreat]

There weren't "millions" of Palestinians there to expel.

The simple fact is that the Palestinian leadership, including Arafat, took a major gamble after the Oslo accords, etc., and they're losing.

They wanted more concessions, so they decided to embark on a campaign of increasing attacks, while Arafat rolled his eyes and pandered to western news, and while his Keystone Cop impersonating security forces did nothing, when they weren't actively looking the other way.

The Israeli people will not tolerate a continuous flow of fanatic suicide bombers being continuously cheered on, sheltered, aided and abetted by the Palestinian communities. If the Palestinians don't handle the radicals in their midst, then the Israelis will.

The comparisons to Nazi Germany are so ****ing absurd that I don't think any of you are really that obtuse. The German and other Jews in Europe were not suicide bombing any Germans they could find and carrying out mass acts of terrorism and guerilla war - they were an integral part of German society, and "wartime reality" is bull**** - the Reich "purity" laws and professions laws occurred years before the war, and for no other reason than hatred and greed. (Göring made a fortune in his "joint ventures") The Jews sure as hell did nothing to escalate the situation, say, blowing up German women and kids at Berlin restaurants?

The Jews in Europe were also a militarily powerless minority, who had no means of exerting a threat against the stability, let alone the survival, of the German Reich.

The Palestinians are surrounded with arab and other sympathizers, are well armed, (even if undisciplined and poorly led) and very definitely have the means to continuously destabilize the Israeli state, which like it or not, exists. No other country in the world would tolerate that kind of active threat on and within it's borders.

The Palestinians are doing nothing but ****ing themselves for generations, because they do have very legitimate grievances, but they've chosen a path that will have them airing those grievances from Baghdad and Damascus, not Bethleham and Ramallah.

[Seeker]

Differences:

Nazi: Race enemies, race enemies are sub-human and have 0 rights of any kind, like an ant, anti-individualist, super-collectivist

Zionist (or any kind of nationalist not as extreme as Nazi): Recognizes right of opponents to exist, their humanity, the fact that individuals do, or at least should, have rights..., the enemies of zionism are political and not racial, etc etc...

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

There weren't "millions" of Palestinians there to expel.

I am amazed but not surprised at American ignorance on this question. Israel expelled or displaced up to 800,000 Palestinians in 1948 alone! This number was added to in succesive wars to the present day.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
MtG, while I agree that it's ridiculous to compare anything on the table in Israel currently with the genocide of Jews in Nazi Europe, doesn't the current upsurge of popularity for the idea of Israel forcibly moving millions of people from their homes and filling them with their own people chill you in the slightest?

If I was an Israeli, living in the day to day reality of wondering if my wife and children would be spread in pieces and splattered all over the pavement for the "crime" of being Israeli and picking the wrong day to go shopping or out to eat - or if I wondered if my only son would grow up to fight and die in yet another war with my arab neighbors, then yes, I'd be in favor of sending the Palestinians to the dark side of the moon if necessary to protect my family and my people.

As long as the Palestinians and other arabs threaten the security and survival of the Israeli state and people, they will lose. When you look at what the Palestinian situation could be right now had they gone along with the Oslo accords, compared to what it actually is, let alone what next month may bring, it's absurd. They have pissed away everything that was gained, and are going backwards at full speed.

[KrazyHorse]

There weren't "millions" of Palestinians there to expel

How many people do you think the West Bank + Gaza contain?

Because my info tells me that the West Bank has 2.1 million people living in it and Gaza has 1.2 million.

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

In '48, the number of Palestinians actively expelled by Israel was no more than a few tenths of thousands. Probably more like ten thousand or so. After that, Israel actively displaced (to my knowledge, I'm prepared to be corrected) no Palestinians - perhaps with the exception of terrorist gangs and armies in Lebanon and such. If you'd make some more research, you'd probably find out the the Arab states did most of the damage to the Palestinian people, first by encouraging them to leave and then by oppressing them horribly - to this day.

[Alexander's Horse]

Here are some precise figures:

Palestinian Refugees: An Overview

Estimates vary of the number of Palestinians refugees displaced from within what became the borders of Israel in 1948. In 1949, the United Nations Conciliation Commission put the number at 726,000; the newly-established United Nations Relief and Works Agency subsequently put the number at 957,000 in 1950. The Israeli government has in the past suggested numbers as low as 520,000, while Palestinian researchers have suggested up to 850,000. Of this population, approximately one-third fled to the West Bank, another third to the Gaza Strip, and the remainder to Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or farther afield.

In 1967, another 300,000 Palestinians fled from the West Bank and Gaza, to Jordan (200,000), Syria, Egypt and elsewhere. Of these, approximately 180,000 were first-time refugees ("displaced persons"), while the remainder were 1948 refugees uprooted for the second time.

Estimates put the Palestinian population at approximately 6.6 million in 1995. In 1995, UNRWA data showed some 3,172,641 registered refugees in its "area of operation" (West Bank, Gaza, Jordan, Syria, Lebanon), plus an estimated 335,000 non-registered "displaced persons".

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Well what do you call Gaza if not a ghetto? The Israeli's even shut it off whenever they are unhappy with the inhabitants. Its bigger than the Warsaw ghetto.

They wanted to seporate from Israel into 2 countries....

No one is stopping them from leaving or applying for Israeli citizenship based on birthrights or family links.

The terrorist in Haifa could freely travel in Israel since his mother is an Israeli arab.

And what is the difference between a nazi and a zionist? They are both extreme nationalists and territorial expansionists based on race.

Little do you know.

Read some early 20th century zionist literature before you spew such nonsense again.

And what territotial expansionism?

We conquered all lands as bargaining chips for peace - to convince arabs to stop war.

The syrians and palestinians have yet to agree to finallize peace for the territories.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse


I am amazed but not surprised at American ignorance on this question. Israel expelled or displaced up to 800,000 Palestinians in 1948 alone! This number was added to in succesive wars to the present day.

Shove your "American ignorance" remark back up your arse where it came from.

Show me:

(a) references to actual census records of Palestinian arab populations within the 1948 borders.

(b) some form of objective accounting of displacements helped along by radical palestinian arabs intimidating or attacking moderate palestinian arabs who were willing to coexist with an Israeli state (the Irgun did their part at Deir Yassin and other places, but there were plenty of arabs who took a dim view of "traitors"

(c) a rational and objective accounting for how many of the displaced were in fact displaced by and as a result of the arab attacks and campaigns in 1948.

Then lets keep going with those hard numbers to the present day, but factor in arab accountability for their part in the whole mess.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


How many people do you think the West Bank + Gaza contain?

Because my info tells me that the West Bank has 2.1 million people living in it and Gaza has 1.2 million.

Those figures are correct now.

We were talking 1948 and how many were expelled from Israel in 1948. Obviously, there are still a lot of Palestinian arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, so they haven't been expelled from there, have they?

Not to mention arab Israeli citizens, the arab parts of Jerusalem, the Golan, etc.

[Mark_Lipovrovskiy]

KrazyHorse: What your sources imply is more related to reproduction rates among repressed societies than to Israeli war crimes

AH: The important point here is to understand that while many Palestinians in '48 in fact WERE expelled by Israel, the majority left either because they were told to leave by the Arab nations, or because they were afraid that the Israelis might kill them. I wouldn't call this fear totally unjustified - but those occasions of massacre that caused the panic were thankfully few.
In '67? I'm pretty sure that no direct Israeli action caused the leaving of those 300k. They left themselves, without our kind aid.

And about recent events? I don't think that they were excpecting much else when they killed my (alebit distant) friend in Tuesday.

[Sirotnikov]

Because my info tells me that the West Bank has 2.1 million people living in it and Gaza has 1.2 million.

I'd call it a huge over estimation.

From what I know Gaza contains somwhat less than 1 million, and the number is not over 2 million for the West bank.

And I stress most of these weren't expelled but rather were born in the diaspora (as sons of refugees) or are people who naturally lived there.

The number of refugees I've seen mentioned by palestinians themselves, living in Gaza is 700K.

The number of expelled moves from 470K - 650K at best.

Many Arabs claim that 800,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians became refugees in 1947-49. The last census was taken by the British in 1945. It found approximately 1.2 million permanent Arab residents in all of Palestine. On November 30, 1947, the date the UN voted for partition, the total within the boundaries of the State of Israel (as fixed by the Armistice Agreements of 1949) was 809,100. A 1949 Government of Israel census counted 160,000 Arabs living in the country after the war.1 This meant no more than 650,000 Palestinian Arabs could have become refugees. A report by the UN Mediator on Palestine arrived at an even lower figure — 472,000^*

* - Progress Report of the United Nations Mediator on Palestine, Submitted to the Secretary-General for Transmission to the Members of the United Nations, General Assembly Official Records: Third Session, Supplement No.11 (A\648), Paris, 1948, p. 47 and Supplement No. 11A (A\689, and A\689\Add.1, p. 5.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Seeker
Differences:

Nazi: Race enemies, race enemies are sub-human and have 0 rights of any kind, like an ant, anti-individualist, super-collectivist

Actually, while the Nazis were about promoting the unity of the masses, it wasn't about collectivism. It was about creating a hive type society, in which the worker drones sloaved away for the good the ubermench, or more precisely, the financial backers of the Nazi party.

Zionist (or any kind of nationalist not as extreme as Nazi): Recognizes right of opponents to exist, their humanity, the fact that individuals do, or at least should, have rights..., the enemies of zionism are political and not racial, etc etc...

There is a section of the Zionist movement that is calling the Palesintians subhuman and calling for their extermination. They are a small section of the movement, but they have political representation in the Knesset.