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Israel has never lost a conventional war, or won a guerilla war

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  • Israel has never lost a conventional war, or won a guerilla war

    Israel has never lost a conventional war against the arabs - 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, conventional phase of 1982.

    Israel has never managed to succeed in a counter insurgency campaign in an arab population center. Lebanon (after the conventional phase), 1st intifada, 2nd intifada thus far.

    Its time for Israel to play to its strengths rather than its weaknesses. Israel cannot win IN the West Bank cities and camps. Tanks are vulnerable in urban warfare, airpower of limited use. This fact is NOT altered by the lack of anyone to negotiate with, the current impossibilty of a political solution. The fact of war does mean that every tactic of war makes sense.

    Israel can only win by shifting the conflict. This means WITHDRAWL, NOT for political reasons, (since the withdrawls involved would not satisfy even arab moderates) but for STRATEGIC reasons. Get out of the places hardest to defend. Then build a wall around the west bank. With barbed wire, mines, electronic sensors, watch towers, etc. Right wing israelis wont like this since it will mean giving up dozens of settlements. Tough luck. Arabs wont like it, since it will cut off the west bank from Jerusalem, and will likely leave Israel in control of places like Ariel,Maaleh Adumim, and Gush Etzion. Tough luck.

    It will be argued that walls wont stop missiles or katyusha rockets. Air power can respond to those. It will never be perfect enough to stop all terrorist acts. No, but it will make the situation livable. On the Lebanese border there are still rocket attacks and occasional terr acts, but the situation is manageble.

    It will be argued that this is giving in to the terrorists, and will encourage them, as in Lebanon. But an Israeli withdrawl that keeps all of Jerusalem, plus Ariel, Maaleh Adumim, and Gush Etzion in Israeli hands, and takes away terrorist leverage over Israel, will NOT be seen as a Palestinian victory, but as a defeat.

    build a wall, withdraw, and crush the terrorists.


    LOTM
    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

  • #2
    Not true, they beat the British in a guerilla war.
    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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    • #3
      Exactly. The US made the same mistake with Somalia. US Forces went into Somalia not knowing what to expect. Even though US forces literally smashed the **** out of Somali Rebels, they couldn't win it without having very, very large massacres on their hands. And that is the same thing for Israel. They could go in, and win but they would have to kill tens of thousands.
      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

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      • #4
        Israel is losing fast all the support it ever hoped to gain from the suicide missions.
        Better thank god that its patron the US is protecting it.

        EU Protests Israeli Attack
        Fri Mar 29, 9:25 PM ET
        By ANGELA DOLAND, Associated Press Writer

        PARIS (AP) - The 15 European Union (news - web sites) nations collectively protested Israel's attack on Yasser Arafat (news - web sites)'s West Bank headquarters Friday, with Italy pressing Israel to guarantee the Palestinian leader's safety.

        Photos

        AP Photo


        The EU also called on Israel to withdraw its troops from the town of Ramallah, where Arafat's complex is located.

        At the same time, the EU urged the Palestinian Authority (news - web sites) to halt the current "spiral of violence" and punish those responsible for the recent string of attacks on Israelis.

        Spain, which holds the rotating EU presidency, said Israel's fight against terrorism and its response to recent attacks must be compatible with safeguarding the Palestinian Authority and its president — "the legitimate representatives of the Palestinian people."

        In France, President Jacques Chirac said "any attack on (Arafat's) ability to act, or on his person, would be extremely serious."

        The French leader also urged Arafat and Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon (news - web sites) to "immediately take all measures to stop the violence."

        "Nothing can excuse or justify blind terrorism against civilians," Chirac told France-Info radio. "Everyone knows there cannot be a military solution to the conflict in the Middle East."

        French Foreign Minister Hubert Vedrine accused Israel of obsessing over Arafat and trying to "asphyxiate" him.

        "It's a complete illusion to believe that, even with Arafat elsewhere or replaced by whatever Palestinian chief, the problem would be different," Vedrine told RFI radio.

        Israel sent troops and tanks to break into Arafat's Ramallah compound, battling his security forces and shelling the buildings. Arafat took refuge in a windowless room, although Israeli officials said they were not trying to hurt him.

        The operation was a response to the latest string of Palestinian attacks, including a Passover massacre that killed 22 diners at a seafront hotel in Israel.

        Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi's government asked Israel to guarantee Arafat's security and respect his elected position.

        "It is fundamental that deeds are not carried out which can prejudice the prospects for a resumption of dialogue," a government statement said.

        Berlusconi's government also said it made a new appeal to the Palestinian Authority to prevent acts of terrorism against unarmed civilians and to dismantle terrorist structures.

        Greek Foreign Minister George Papandreou condemned the Israeli military action, saying his country had "ties, both friendly and personal, with President Arafat."

        "For us Arafat is not an enemy, and beyond this he is also a personal friend," said Papandreou, who also condemned the terror attacks on Israelis.

        About 1,500 Greek and Palestinian protesters chanting, "Freedom for Palestine!" and banging steel drums gathered outside the Israeli embassy in Athens to protest the military action. Police riot squads kept the protesters from the building.

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        • #5
          I hate to break this to you Paiktis, but Arafat is a backstabbing SOB who just causes problems. He has done nothing. And I hope Berlusconi understands this when he finds out that Arafat won't do anything. Because Israel already has and it is taking action against that long time terrorist, Arafat.
          For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by paiktis22
            Israel is losing fast all the support it ever hoped to gain from the suicide missions.
            I posted this in response to Imran but it looks like it will work for you as well.

            Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
            And then the terrorist bombings will be insufferable.
            Relatively speaking, Isreal has suffered the equivilant of 56584 civilians killed or injured between September 29, 2000 - August 9, 2001 in comparison to the US. I think that the terrorist bombings have been insufferable for quite sometime.

            Just for speculations sake, what do you think the US response would be if Mexico had purposefully killed or injured that many of its civilians in that same period of time and showed absolutely no signs of slowing down?
            I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
            For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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            • #7
              Originally posted by paiktis22
              Israel is losing fast all the support it ever hoped to gain from the suicide missions.
              Better thank god that its patron the US is protecting it.
              Protecting them from what? European intervention?
              KH FOR OWNER!
              ASHER FOR CEO!!
              GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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              • #8
                Originally posted by Drake Tungsten


                Protecting them from what? European intervention?

                Protecting them from international intervantion of course.
                As well as supplying weapons to them.

                The only answer these people have now is attacks (call them terrorist if it helps you) against Israel and all those who support it. Which is one = the US.

                Arrested Palestinians face a wall during an Israeli operation in the West Bank City of Ramallah, March 30, 2002. Israeli troops kept up their siege of a defiant Yasser Arafat in his battered presidential compound in Ramallah on Saturday as the U.N. Security Council demanded that Israel quit Palestinian cities. REUTERS/Laszlo Balogh
                Attached Files

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                • #9
                  Re: Israel has never lost a conventional war, or won a guerilla war

                  Originally posted by lord of the mark
                  Its time for Israel to play to its strengths rather than its weaknesses.
                  Read : surrender.

                  Israel cannot win IN the West Bank cities and camps. Tanks are vulnerable in urban warfare, airpower of limited use. This fact is NOT altered by the lack of anyone to negotiate with, the current impossibilty of a political solution. The fact of war does mean that every tactic of war makes sense.

                  Israel can only win by shifting the conflict. This means WITHDRAWL, NOT for political reasons, (since the withdrawls involved would not satisfy even arab moderates) but for STRATEGIC reasons. Get out of the places hardest to defend. Then build a wall around the west bank. With barbed wire, mines, electronic sensors, watch towers, etc. Right wing israelis wont like this since it will mean giving up dozens of settlements. Tough luck. Arabs wont like it, since it will cut off the west bank from Jerusalem, and will likely leave Israel in control of places like Ariel,Maaleh Adumim, and Gush Etzion. Tough luck.
                  It will be argued that walls wont stop missiles or katyusha rockets. Air power can respond to those. It will never be perfect enough to stop all terrorist acts. No, but it will make the situation livable. On the Lebanese border there are still rocket attacks and occasional terr acts, but the situation is manageble.


                  Your main point is that the new borders will be more defendable, thus reducing the number of casulaties, and you bring Lebanon as an example.
                  First, air power cannot respond to missiles like in Lebanon. The Palestinians will shoot missiles from their cities, and fast Israeli response to stop the firing will cause hundreds of casualties and therefore immediate escalation to the most lethal level of the conflict, when the Palestinians use everything they have. But this is not really important, the main problem is the huge mistake you make, by wishing the situation in Judea and Samaria to be like in south Lebanon.
                  The withdrawal from Lebanon was the biggest mistake Israel made in the last decade, even bigger than not stopping the Oslo process during 96.
                  Yes, we no longer lose 100 soldiers every year but it is clear, if you try to listen to Nasralla, or Palestinian terror organization leaders that a situation like in South Lebanon is their goal. Nasralla is the first Arab leader that ever defeated Israel and caused the IDF to flee.
                  But, this is far from being the main problem.
                  Two years of quiet in south Lebanon gave Hizballah the time to arm itself with 8000-10000 rockets. Most of them are Katyushas, but at least 2000 are long range rockets that can get to Haifa and even Hadera. And, they still have a casus belli, just like the Palestinians will have if Israel withdraws.
                  The Hizballah is a terrorist organization, and it's leader is personally involved(his son was killed by Sayeret Egoz). Do you really think that eventually, tommorow or in 10 years those missiles will not be used. And when 2000 missiles will rain on Haifa, the mistake will be clear.
                  Do you want the same situation in the territories? This time, with Dimona, Tel Aviv, Beer Sheva and Jerusalem in the range of the missiles.

                  It will be argued that this is giving in to the terrorists, and will encourage them, as in Lebanon. But an Israeli withdrawl that keeps all of Jerusalem, plus Ariel, Maaleh Adumim, and Gush Etzion in Israeli hands, and takes away terrorist leverage over Israel, will NOT be seen as a Palestinian victory, but as a defeat.
                  Will this be the final solution to the conflict? If not, the Pals will want all those areas too, and they will be only encouraged by the withdrawal.
                  "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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                  • #10
                    Well, there can be no "international intervention" without the United States' support, period. You may think that the US is evil for supporting Israel, but I think the US is correct on this. You seem to think that terrorism is an excusable act that Israel must just sit back and take, but I think that Israel has every right to find and arrest the terrorists who are threatening the lives of Israel civilians with their indiscriminate attacks. No country on earth would put up with the kind of attacks that have been launched against Israel recently.
                    KH FOR OWNER!
                    ASHER FOR CEO!!
                    GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
                      Well, there can be no "international intervention" without the United States' support, period.
                      For the time being. Meanwhile things are adding up.

                      You may think that the US is evil for supporting Israel, but I think the US is correct on this. You seem to think that terrorism is an excusable act that Israel must just sit back and take, but I think that Israel has every right to find and arrest the terrorists who are threatening the lives of Israel civilians with their indiscriminate attacks. No country on earth would put up with the kind of attacks that have been launched against Israel recently.
                      No. It's just that these attacks are the only thing these people have to retaliate with.
                      See, their country is occupied and they are being killed and humiliated in an every day basis. They face an american supplied army and they have but a few kalashnikovs.
                      With the blessings of the US which has just payed a price for that with the "strategic" buildings collapsing. WTC, Pentagon etc this will continue.

                      But hey do what you got to do.

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                      • #12
                        Explosion in Tel Aviv.
                        "Beware of he who would deny you access to information, for in his heart he dreams himself your master" - Commissioner Pravin Lal.

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                        • #13
                          See what I mean?

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                          • #14
                            If you are so weak that the only way you can fight back is by blowing up innocent civilians, then I would suggest that you are too weak to fight at all. The Palestinians would be much better off if they adopted a practice of non-violent protest like Gandhi adopted in India. This would be very effective considering the support the Palestinians already enjoy in Europe and the Middle East and would not give the Israelis any reason to make incursions into the West Bank or Gaza Strip. I doubt this will ever happen though, as Arab society seems to value suicide martyrs more than they do Gandhi-like proponents of non-violent protest.
                            KH FOR OWNER!
                            ASHER FOR CEO!!
                            GUYNEMER FOR OT MOD!!!

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                            • #15
                              good trolling , paiktis , good trolling
                              urgh.NSFW

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