Gun Crime

[*End Is Forever*]

I've been doing a little delving into the respective crime figures of the US and the UK today, in response to a debate elsewhere. Anyway, this was my response... I've just copied and pasted it, and deleted the phrases that referred to the person I was talking to, so if there are a couple of sentences that don't fit so well, that's why. But the point remains the same.

The most recent full statistics available are for the
year 2000.

In 2000, 8493 (eight thousand, four hundred and ninety
three) people were murdered in the United States using
a firearm. In the UK, the equivalent number was 15
(fifteen). This means that for every person murdered
using a firearm on UK soil, over 566 people were
murdered by the same method in the United States.
Therefore, given that the UK has a population
approximately 1/6 of the US population, if US gun
murder figures were proportionally equivalent, then
there would be 90 gun murders in the United States.
This is quite a few less than 8493, don't you think?

In addition, in 2000 there were 407842 robberies in
the United States, of which 40.9% (166807) involved
firearms. The equivalent figure in the UK was 3965
robberies involving the use of a firearm. Again, if
the UK had the population of the USA, the equivalent
figure would be 23790. Again, a staggering difference.

I have little doubt that the staggering differences in
these figures are at least in part down to the
ridiculously lax guns laws in the United States of
America. Freedom is a noble goal. I fully
support the right of those who have legitimate uses
for firearms to keep them and use them. However, to
allow anyone to own high-powered arms without any
checks or safeguards is quite frankly folly, and is
illustrated as such by the figures above. 8000
innocent lives is not a price worth paying for the
dubious "freedom" of a few NRA gun nuts to keep their
weapons. The USA is suffering from this.

Sources:

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius_00/00crime2.pdf

http://www.archive.official-documents.co.uk/document/cm53/5312/crimestats.pdf

[DinoDoc]

8000 innocent lives is not a price worth paying for the
dubious "freedom" of a few NRA gun nuts to keep their
weapons. The USA is suffering from this.

*Sigh*

[*End Is Forever*]

Sorry Bill, that was a little troll at the end.

Anyway, for those who don't agree that gun control is the answer, I'd be very interested to hear how they account for the huge difference in firearms-related crime.

[Ramo]

In 2000, 8493 (eight thousand, four hundred and ninety
three) people were murdered in the United States using
a firearm. In the UK, the equivalent number was 15
(fifteen). This means that for every person murdered
using a firearm on UK soil, over 566 people were
murdered by the same method in the United States.
Therefore, given that the UK has a population
approximately 1/6 of the US population, if US gun
murder figures were proportionally equivalent, then
there would be 90 gun murders in the United States.
This is quite a few less than 8493, don't you think?
[...]
8000
innocent lives is not a price worth paying for the
dubious "freedom" of a few NRA gun nuts to keep their
weapons. The USA is suffering from this.

Umm... don't you think that's a little disingenuous? A much more meaningful figure would compare the number of US murders per capita with UK murders per capita (I believe that ratio is closer to 1:50, but I think I'm overestimating).

Another thing to note that the UK is not fighting the same war on drugs that the US is, and is therefore isn't facing its consequences.

[David Floyd]

Personally, even if you concede that gun control would stop all those deaths (which it won't), I still oppose gun control as unconstitutional and the antithesis of freedom.

[*End Is Forever*]

Ramo, it's approximately 1:95, using those figures.

[mactbone]

Has anyone figured out total murders?
What about the whole legal/illegal firearms ratio in America?

[MrFun]

To attempt to ban handguns in the United States would be impratical to say the least because too many people in the United States have the misperception that they have the right to bear arms.

But according to consistent Supreme Court rulings over the past 65 years or so, individual Americans do not have the right to bear arms.

But the misperception is so prevelant, and so deeply-embedded, that the right to bear arms is defacto.

[GeneralTacticus]

Personally, even if you concede that gun control would stop all those deaths (which it won't), I still oppose gun control as unconstitutional and the antithesis of freedom.

DF, you seem to have a very twisted idea of freedom. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to think that if you let everyone do what they want, nothing will go wrong. While that's just fine, you also seem to think that this will work even if you don't allow this to be enforced. If everyone just ignored everyone else, then the result would be crime everywhere. You would be constantly getting mugged, raped, murdered etc. by anyone who wanted to, and no-one would have the right to do anything.

[mactbone]

Well, he would have a gun to stop them

Mr. Fun, what he's arguing, and I agree with him here, is that it is explicitly stated that we have the right to bear arms. If you take that away, there is always the possibility that the other Rights can be taken away at some time. By keeping all of the rights in tact, we can keep the whole thing in balance.

For the record, I believe that we should limit what guns can be purchased (you NEED a machine gun?). I also believe that trying to get rid of guns would become a major problem if such a law to ban guns was ever passed. It just isn't practical to get rid of an industry and hunt down every gun.

[Ramo]

Iaiaiain-
According to Table 4.1 in your second link, there were 15.5 homicides/10^6 inhabitants last year in England and Wales. That would be 1.55 homicides/10^5 inhabitants.

According to your first link there were 5.5 homicides/10^5 inhabitants in the US.

1.55/5.5 isn't all that impressive a disparity, considering our war of drugs, ya know.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ramo
Iaiaiain-
According to Table 4.1 in your second link, there were 15.5 homicides/10^6 inhabitants last year in England and Wales. That would be 1.55 homicides/10^5 inhabitants.

According to your first link there were 5.5 homicides/10^5 inhabitants in the US.

1.55/5.5 isn't all that impressive a disparity, considering our war of drugs, ya know.

I'm confused Ramo, are you attributing the high murder rate in the US to the influence of drugs, or to the "war on drugs" itself?

[DaShi]

Guns do more to stop crime than any other weapon.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
I'm confused Ramo, are you attributing the high murder rate in the US to the influence of drugs, or to the "war on drugs" itself?

It might make for an interesting comparison to look at the murder rates before, during, & after Prohibition in order to get an idea how the WoD is affecting the murder rate today.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Personally, even if you concede that gun control would stop all those deaths (which it won't), I still oppose gun control as unconstitutional and the antithesis of freedom.

So in every country where individual civilians are not allowed to own firearms there is no freedom?

I hope you see how absurd that is.