What do you think about what's happening in Zimbabwe?

[KrazyHorse]

No I don't. Out of respect for the dead and for ourselves, I'd suggest that we weren't so inclined to flash bloody pictures of their corpses on tv/the internet/newspapers for shock value.

Oh, and in case you're quibbling with the definition of voyeurism:

2. An obsessive observer of sordid or sensational subjects

http://www.dictionary.com/search?q=voyeurism

[faded glory]

Ya I agree with he bodies thing. Like in afghanistan. Reporters have no business doing that sheit.

Arne't the whites in Zimbabwe British citizens of some kind? I apologize in advance

No...I dont think. But UK government does pay to bring them back I believe. But there were only 100,000 or so in the country. Most have left. There farms were burnt down. Now S.Zimbabwe has a MASSIVE famine. And Mugabe blames the whites and the British. But its only his and basketcase distribution policies.

Dont burn down farms because whites were there. If your going to redistribute land, the least you could do is teach the people your giving it too how to farm.

Actually I support Economic Sanctions here. I also believe mugabe should be watched; henceforth

[ravagon]

Originally posted by faded glory

Actually I support Economic Sanctions here. I also believe mugabe should be watched; henceforth

Problem with that though is that with his hold on power and control of the country's media outlets he is still pretty much unaffected and free to blame the economic reversal on anybody he wishes. Fuel anti-british/Western hatred even more.
Eliminating him from the picture altogether might be a better solution if anybody had the will to do it.
Although that course might just end up in another African civil war... No easy answers as far as I can see.

[Ramo]

Economic sanctions accomplish absolutely nothing.

It only further impoverishes the people of Zimbabwe and gives Mugabe better propaganda.

[loinburger]

I'll be honest, I dont' give a bloody **** about Zimbabwe or any other podunk nation that doesn't seem to be able to get its ass straightened out. What does my ****ing opinion matter? If my opinion has some chance of affecting US policy, then some European **** will just accuse the US of acting unilaterally. If my opinion has no chance of affecting US policy, then I'll be accused of being a bigoted **** by the autistic like of Comrade Tribune regardless of what I actually think. So what's the fukcing point of having a fukcing opinion, eh?

[Dr. Stiby]

I didn't vote on the poll, because IMHO, this situation is too complicated to sum up in 5 options.
I actually visited Zimbabwe last summer. I spent nearly two months there working in a volunteer project and travelling around the country. Sothis situation concerns me a lot since I made a good deal of friends in Zimbabawe

Arne't the whites in Zimbabwe British citizens of some kind? I apologize in advance

Most whites in Zimbabawe have been around there for several generations. They are just as much Zimbabaweans as is the black population. White Zimbabweans will probably have great trouble adjusting to living in great Britain.

What's wrong with sanctions? States are under no special obligation to trade with those they distateful

The current sanctions aren't being very helpful (not giving Mugabe visa to visit other countries, blocking MDC leaders bank accounts), but it's the least that can be done. Economic sanctions will only do more harm than good to Zimbabwe. Mugabe has gone through a lot to remain in power. He has practically ruined a relativily wealthy country in the course of two years and doesn't seem to care. Economic sanctions won't bother him. There is a huge shortage in foreign money in Zimbabawe currently. Trading whatever Zimbabwe still has left is necessary for them to be able to continue buying oil and import food.

[Hydey]

I think the white farmers originally got the land via violence and murder as well but then they only killed blacks

As for geting rid of dodgy governments I would rather we got rid of the Australian one first.

[Ecowiz Returns]

If not Economic sanctions, what else?

I think it is clear to all that Economic Sanctions alone will not drive Mr. Mugabe out of ofice. However, the notion of National Sovereignty prevents other action (unless, we are talking about "The Axis of Evil", of course, or some ex-communist dictator).

A open front of Economic Sanctions against Zimbabwe and those that break the Sactions (being them countries, business or individuals) is the most powerfull remedy. But as all remedies we know, it is bound to do harm (possibly even more harm than good).

As far as the International Community aknowledges, Mr. Mugabe is not the legitimate representative of Zimbabwean will. In fact, there is no such person right now, in Zimbabwe. In other context, we would find some powerfull nations busting there and snatching Mr. Mugabe to be present in International Human Rights Court. Legally, i don't believe Mr. Mugabe is protected by National Soveregnty for he himself made sure that Zimbabwe has no legitimate leader, but a tirant protected by an armed force. But higher "values" are in stake.

So, as no other choice is given, Economic Sanctions are to only way one can weaken the power of Mugabe. Even if it takes much more time than what is humanly accepted.

[Dr. Stiby]

So, as no other choice is given, Economic Sanctions are to only way one can weaken the power of Mugabe

Your post doesn't make clear how sanctions will effectively weaken his power. He has been elected for 6 years, and unless he dies (he's 78 IIRC), he's going to stay president for 6 years. No matter what the rest of the world thinks.

[Ecowiz Returns]

Unfortunately, you are likelly to be right

But the problem remains that no other thing can be done.

Also, economic sanctions will make it more dificult for him to obtain the resources that allow him to keep his supporters pleased.

If, somehow, the army gets to know that they'll probably have a better living (higher wages, better "toys"...) in an internationally subsidized democratic regime than in an internationally opressed one, they may choose not to support the old man any more.

However, it is an unfortunate truth that, in Africa, usually the only remedy is the death of tirant (and sometimes not even that helps).

[Lars-E]

I know of two Zimbabwians in my church. Sylvester feels that this is only a power thing. Mugabe has enuff monies. He seems to be corrupted by power and slightly irrational about it.. Clinging desperately.. Getting old too. Sad thing being the hope of Africa many years ago.. But power corrupts and if you're not all bone and bristle you stand to lose the battle.

Those two church persons work at uni's here and back in Africa. In the same one in fact here and there. When is Mugabe gonna crack down on intellectuals? Is he already doing this.

[Rufus T. Firefly]

Sanction fans take note: there was a piece in the NY Times last week (can't find it now, alas) about how Mugabe is already economically isolated and has been for years. The result is that he's actually mortgaged much of the national infrastructure to...Libya! Thus, any attack on Zimbabwe's economy serves to increase the power of Col. Qaddafi. Just thought you should know.

[Dr. Stiby]

Also, economic sanctions will make it more dificult for him to obtain the resources that allow him to keep his supporters pleased.

The funny thing is that Mugabe has hardly got any supporters in Zimbabwe. Most people living in the bigger cities in Zimbabwe are MDC (opposition) supporters. People living in the rural areas get to see only state-owned television and read state-controlled papers. They are led to believe that the problems Zimbabwe are facing today are actually the result of british imperialism. Apart from that they are also intimidated by ZANU-PF members.
The only thing that basically keeps Mugabe in power is the fact that both the police and the army still support him. Most generals and other army leaders made a good profit with their influence in the war in the Democratic republic of Congo. They know Mugabe don't mind their illegal activities in Congo, whereas they can not be sure if Tsvangirai (or any other opposition member being elected president) would be just as unconcerned. So it's in their own benefit that Mugabe stays in charge.
Sad situation..

[dannyevilcat]

I had little opinion one way or the other o this subject UNTIL I saw that picture.
I find it very sad, and when it comes to real world affairs it is better to see than to imagine.

Just wanted to get that off my chest.

[Dr. Stiby]

Would that picture have touched you just as much if there wasn't a dog guarding his owners dead body?