Did a plane really hit the pentagon?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Dissident
nobody answered my question.

where is the 4th plane?

4th plane? Do we have any solid evidence that there was a 4th one?

[Dis]

the FAA confirmed the 4 hijackings...

there are passengers missing on the fourth plane. death notices have been issued. family members have declared their family members missing.

[Aeson]

sorry, double post

[Aeson]

I'd have to agree with everything Vel has posted here. The events of 9/11 have given the government the opportunity to act in ways that wouldn't have been acceptable before. The debate on whether this is just coincidence or if it was planned is not a bad thing, blind acceptance would be. Leaders and controlling factions of different societies have used the support of nationalism and patriotism to commit attrocities in the past, and given the chance it will continue to happen. Just because a government is "ours" doesn't mean it cannot be corrupt.

[Dis]

my post near the bottom of page 2 sums up that arugment.

there is no reason. Unless you assume all 4 hijackings are conpiracies. Then you have an argument. But why make a point that only 1 of them was a conspiracy? my post on page 2 tries to argue why they would cover up only this particular crash.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Velociryx
The oddest thing to me is this:

One of two things HAD to happen. Either the plane came down in the lawn in front of the building and plowed into it (which would explain impact damage on just the first floor...MAYBE) but then would have left the front lawn torn to hell and back, OR

The plane hit the building dead on....no torn up lawn, but it would have caused impact damage on more than the first floor.

-=Vel=-

No idea whatsoever about the lawn thing but an airliner impacting head on as it did could have had an effect similar to a sabot shell. Bulk of the aircraft in the fuselage which impacts over a small area. Wings impacting over a much larger area are taken off. Net result being that the main body which isn't much bigger than a floor penetrates. The Pentagon being much closer to the ground suffers much less as the load-bearing sections aren't nearly as critical as for a 200-odd storey skyscraper.
Additionally that aircraft was much closer to the ground hence couldn't travel as quickly without suffering from ground effect -related turbulence hence should have been travelling much more slowly...

[Velociryx]

Thank ya, Aeson....I dunno....I'm just....growing more alarmed by the day about the suspension of rights for our citizens, this whole homeland defense department....several nuiances of the whole thing that are being conveniently glossed over "no...no need to look into why the planes weren't shot down....even tho there was ample time to do so...pay no attention to the man behind the curtain...."

There are questions.

Real, valid questions.

And they have no answers.

Further, attempts to GET at answers are being turned away in the name of national security.

That's strange to me.

Not a conspiracy theorist....just curious. Very curious and vaguely alarmed.

-=Vel=-

[Aeson]

Originally posted by Dissident
If the air force didn't destroy the plane, then were is it. Why are they covering it up? We know for sure the plane was hijacked. The FAA confirmed this.

...

I could see believing in pearl harbour being know of and the moon landings. Because there is motive for both of those conspiracies. But what of this one?

The fact that the plane was hijacked isn't a question. The question is who hijacked it, and for what purpose. If it wasn't flown into the Pentagon, there are a million places it could have been flown.

Motive for a proposed conspiracy like this could be many things. Who knows just where this will lead us? We have seen the destruction of a foriegn government stemmed from the events of 9/11. Would the war on the Taliban and terrorists have been supported otherwise? There is now a shadow government in place, which I admit to not knowing much about. Would the American people have supported the formation of such an organization in other circumstance? The existance of a motive isn't what makes a conspiracy theory true or not. A motive can be found for just about anything.

[Dis]

But that point isn't really valid.

Sure many things have come about because of 9/11.

But wouldn't they have come about just from the 2 attacks on the WTC alone?

yes they would have.

the attack on the Pentagon was not necessary for our desire to attack and destory the Taliban and Al Queda. The WTC destruction was all that was needed for motivation.


This is what I mean by lack of motive. Now if you were to tell me that the WTC attack was also a conspiracy then I would say then there is a motive. But the argument is using the destruction of the WTC to compare to the destruction of the Pentagon. So I'm assuming the website isn't calling the WTC a conspiracy. The website is assuming what was shown to have happened actually happened to the WTC.

So what this leaves us with is a group of people that believe only 1 of the hijackings was covered up. If the WTC attacks really did happen, that was all that was needed to piss americans off. 3000 dead etc, etc. The pentagon wasn't much of a terrorist target. We expect military casualties in war, but not civilian.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Aeson

Motive for a proposed conspiracy like this could be many things. Who knows just where this will lead us? We have seen the destruction of a foriegn government stemmed from the events of 9/11. Would the war on the Taliban and terrorists have been supported otherwise? There is now a shadow government in place, which I admit to not knowing much about. Would the American people have supported the formation of such an organization in other circumstance? The existance of a motive isn't what makes a conspiracy theory true or not. A motive can be found for just about anything.

Motives run many ways. What does the US possibly gain by the New Afghani government? Cutting off the drug trade? Taking out Osama the video-making guy? Surely if one believes the US government is responsible for such atrocities against its own people one can't expect them not to be behind that as well?
They just don't gain enough from it. Office of Homeland security is a paper tiger at the moment. No declaration of martial law dating back through 11th Sept.
The administration hasn't even begun a general mobilization and geared up the MI complex the way they did after Pearl Harbour.
The vast majority of these theories really don't make too much sense.

[Dis]

thank you

exactly

these don't make sense.

there are much better theories out there. I could believe the U.S. faked the video of Osama. I could believe the U.S. shot down the flight over Pennslyvania. But not this.

[TCO]

How could it be a conspiracy?

1. The plane IS missing.

2. The attack happened in conjunction with 3 other terrorist attacks.

Vel, you really make me wonder. Maybe you should stick to playing wargames on the computer and not analyze real world events.

[Jaguar]

Maybe it was a truck but everyone assumed it was a plane. (Were there any witnesses who saw the crash?)

But the question of where the 4th plane went then is confusing. The newspapers did seem to have an exact course the Pentagon plane took. I'm inclined to believe it was a plane still.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Dissident
I could believe the U.S. shot down the flight over Pennslyvania. But not this.

I don't even believe that. In most cases such an act might topple a government in the US but the 11th of September was "a very different day" as (I think) MtG put it.
The US government/AF could have shot it down with few repercussions even if it was later proved not to be hijacked.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by FireDragon

But the question of where the 4th plane went then is confusing. The newspapers did seem to have an exact course the Pentagon plane took. I'm inclined to believe it was a plane still.

The 4th plane was supposed to have gone down over fairly inhospitable terrain in Alabama (IIRC?). ie: few or no eyewitnesses. The Pentagon attack was in DC. ie: a whole (potential) city of witnesses.