Battle for Palestine

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by Eli
Another example for my ranting against the Pals in Dal's solutions thread.

This Palestinian policeman was suspected with cooperating with Israel.

It's the Rammalah main city square btw.

They are no more savages than some Americans with 'nigers' few tens year ago. Or some european (french, belgians, english, ...) settlers. They are humans, they are cruals.

Since, I agree it will be difficult to deal with them. I think only when palestinian will have a wealthier situation (less poverty, more job, clean house or flat) they will be less influenced by hatred. Western country must build social structure (that Israel will not destroy!).

Corruption of some Pals leaders must be stopped (They some VERY rich palestinian which they income is at least doubtful) to allow western aids to be efficient.

When people are enough feed, have good health care and a home, they will be far less easly manipulated by hatred speech.
If they have nothing to lose, they will less hesitate to die and to kill for their ideology.

[ZoboZeWarrior]

Originally posted by CyberGnu
Oh, I'm assuming you read the story... It said 'completely subdued'.

They was a little chance that he could trigger the bomb, not sure of course but I would have not tried my chance on that.
It is still an execution, but I cannot condemn the policemen for that, they were maybe in danger.
And the guy choosed to die after all.

[BlackStone]

Faded glory - I think that you are letting your allegiance colour your view, which will unfortunately lessen your argument. Summary executions are an injustice whoever commits them. It is an pointless exercise to try and claim that one side has impeccable intentions and never does anything wrong and that the other is fundamentally evil. Some Israeli troops and police have committed atrocities, and usually it is Israeli human rights groups that have been the first to speak out about them, and fight to bring justice. Just add a little balance is all I’m saying.


I ask a question earlier but it seems to have been lost (bad time to log on I guess), Can the Israeli posters and supporters tell me what their thoughts are about this Saudi peace idea. I am sorry if it has already been covered elsewhere.

[Eli]

CT :

This case is even more serious than you think. According to some reports, the Police Head/Commander/Whatever in that region(Jerusalem?) ordered the policemen to execute him. There was a short media fuss about it, but when a whole IDF division enters a Palestinian city and 6-7 Israelis die every day the issue is being pushed back.
In my opinion, if these allegations are proven true, all men involved, starting from the shooter and ending with the police commander should be trialed immediately.
The most important thing we have is our humanity, and when in this difficult situation there are cases in which people lose it, they should be trialed and punished immediately. So that we will be able to say to ourselves that we are not like the beasts who hang people in the city square, deliberately murder innocents and then release the responsible because the victim is from the other side.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by ZoboZeWarrior
They are no more savages than some Americans with 'nigers' few tens year ago. Or some european (french, belgians, english, ...) settlers. They are humans, they are cruals.

Well, according to my standard people who lynch others or target innocent people are savages, be they human or not.

That goes for Israeli idiots and savages as well.

Since, I agree it will be difficult to deal with them. I think only when palestinian will have a wealthier situation (less poverty, more job, clean house or flat) they will be less influenced by hatred. Western country must build social structure (that Israel will not destroy!).

Hmm...
Let me refresh your memory:

Sept 2000

The most successfull economical year for ISrael and the PA
Many cooperation efforts
After camp david didn't work, Barak continues to negociate peace in Tab'a.

And then, somehow, someway, terror erupted.

The conclusion is that this eruption was infact NOT fueled by the people but rather instigated by Arafat.

And the longer this conflict draws, the more devastation it creates for both sides.

If we on Oct. 2000, crushed the PA, so many lives would ahve been saved on both sides.

Corruption of some Pals leaders must be stopped (They some VERY rich palestinian which they income is at least doubtful) to allow western aids to be efficient.

How about Arafat having secret bank accounts with the aid he gets for the pals which he keeps for himself?
I read a very interesting feature about it in Yedioth Ahronot.

When people are enough feed, have good health care and a home, they will be far less easly manipulated by hatred speech.
If they have nothing to lose, they will less hesitate to die and to kill for their ideology.

Remind you again - sept. 2000.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by Comrade Tribune
The question is rather: With what savages to the Pals have to deal on a daily basis?

1 Below is a pic from AFP. It shows IDF soldiers quite simply executing a hand-cuffed Palestinian ***suspect*** with a shot in the head.

Well, that I don't agree with. Just like builder said.

That is ****ing horrible.

And still, he wanted to die anyway. This way he died without taking Israelis with him.

2 Today Israelis nearly killed the Austrian TV correspondent ***while he was on air***. He was in a building in Ramallah Israelis ***knew*** was used by the press. He was life on Austrian TV, describing the new developments, and a bullet came through the window and closely missed him. Everybody in Austria saw that in the evening news. Support for Israel will certainly increase here after we have all seen how careful the IDF is making sure not to harm innocents.

Once again let me remind you:
1) This is a war zone. Journalists got killed in yugoslavia and chechnya and afghanistan.

2) Israel makes a serious offensive and therefore it is prone to more "collateral damage". Admittedly, it ain't right or just. But it happens. That's why we call it war.

3) It is hard to trace bullets. IDF very often have gunfights with palestinian gunmen. Theoretically, any of the bullets could come from pals just as well.

4) Many low ranking field officers are stupid. This is the thing I am most ashamed of, but it's true. Not all small officers or soldiers know which building is which. This is in my eyes deplorable and I believe the new Chief of General Staff will do his best to stop.

Unfortunately, both the Pals and the Israelies haven't been doing that. Consider that the Israelies have been killing "suspected terrorists" openly, it's not just the Pals who are savages.

Let me remind you again.

We only killed people when we had no other choise. To prove that, compare some 30 people we assassinated, to 1000s we successfully managed to arrest and are now facing trial or already serving time.

However, arresting, esp. big shot leaders, is tough and costly. And this, together with a hot-alert scenario (we know he's planning a terract really soon) is what makes us pull the trigger.


You criticize our assassinations, but then when we enter the terrotories and physically apprehend (those who aren't hiding in Arafat's office) terrorists, you criticize us once more.

Arafat is not arresting anyone. It's all up to us. What should we do?


And finally, given the low rate of assassination compared to arrests, you can be sure Israel always acts on more than a "hunch" when assassinating.

Problem is, sometimes we miss

[Sirotnikov]

Faded, the outrage only occurs among people who believs in things like 'innocent until proven guilty', 'the police should not be also judge and executioner'.

Hmm...

I suppose an innocent man could be walking around with a bomb on his chest and seeking out jewish kids because... he wants to give them candy?

I think a better term for it is "an accused" or something, because it's evident he has done something bad, the question is whether circumstance lessen the crime.

BWT, where do you draw your lines? If a cop arrest you for shoplifting, is it OK if he shoots you? How about murder?

If you go around shooting people, it's perfectly ok if the cop shoots you.

Shooting you when you're handcuffed is different. Wrong. Very.

However go fig. Perhaps they feared he somehow will attempt to explode it by twitching when they disarm it or something.

Anyway, they should be trialed.

[Sirotnikov]

As far as I can tell, his intentions were to keep breathing.

If you are refering to his previous intentions, that doesn't apply. There was no danger of him detonating anything.

I assume the policemen on the site had a better view of the situation.

He could have tried and resisted during the disarmament of the bomb, which could have brought to it's explosion.

I suspect that that is exactly what happenned, since to date, bomb carrying terrorists were not killed after they were caught.


I assume some kind of sleep drug would have been more humane, but it's not always possible or is there time for it.

[Az]

I am not sure who said it , but was his intention to keep on breathing? You do remember he's a suicide bomber, right?

innocent until proven guilty ? Actually , I guess he committed no crime , since he didn't actually explode himself taking the lifes of numerous civilians with him... , huh?

what we're dealing with are madmen . They are willing to die , killing other people , guilty of nothing , with them , in the belief that they will recieve an unearthly treating when they supposedly arrive to a place that doesn't exist.

the whole fricking situation cannot be tackled by regular means.

Since in my opinion , the Islamic extremism is not caused by living conditions , but by train of thought , and social normas , I also believe that we cannot make life better for the people in the ME , and improve their stance on things . As long as human life is not valued as highly as in most other societies, there is nothing to talk about.

We cannot teach the people of islamic countries to behave differently because that would be forcing our civilization on them? our values on them?

I don't know any more . I have absolutely no clue.

And you're saying the police was right shooting a defenseless, unarmed man?

*cough* bomb*cough* ... so you feel sorry for the suicide bomber? The only way I feel sorry for him that he was beeing used as a pawn by muslim leaders.


UR, about the perfect state : I was reffering to a mini-discussion we had in that other thread :'how can people prefer National Socialism to communism?'

I assume some kind of sleep drug would have been more humane, but it's not always possible or is there time for it.

police don't go around with tranquilizer guns, IIRC. nowhere.

[Bereta_Eder]

*Damn Greek enters the thread*


Sorry but wasn't the man handcuffed when he was executed?

[Sirotnikov]

What has more meaning?

2 thin Pieces of metal around his arms?
or a thick belt of TNT around his chest?

He could rub it on the floor until it exploded or something


I support a full investigation.

Don't judge so quickly.

[Az]

No he the picture shows that the policeman is trying to subdue him , right?

I honestly don't know .


... Damn greek....

[Bereta_Eder]

ahem...

Free-lance photographer Raffaele Ciriello, who was shot several times in the chest

A French journalist was hit in the leg by gunfire but his wound was not life-threatening.

Photo cap: Italian free-lance photographer Raffaele Ciriello, 42, poses with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat in Arafat's office in the West Bank town of Ramallah Tuesday March 12, 2002. Ciriello, on assignment for the Italian daily Corriere della Sera, was shot and killed by Israeli tank fire early Wednesday March 13, 2002.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=578&u=/nm/20020313/ts_nm/mideast_dc_823

See how friendly the killed journo was with Arafatatatat? (notice their holding of hands in support)...
also a FRENCH journo was hit?....




(ok that was the last one from me now )

[Az]

what's your point?

[CyberGnu]

Siro, your conclusions is based on flawed data, or rather a flawed extrapolation.

While the situation for the palestinians were better in 2000 than they'd been in 50 years, they were by no means good.

BTW, if Arafats bank accounts are secret, how come you read about them? (I'm not really serious... I just hate the use of the word 'secret' when it is reported in the media. Pet peeve of mine, if you will).

I'm not entirely sure what your point is though... Yes, Arafat has most likely salted away some of the aid money for himself. But you also said yourself that before the second intifada the palstinians were enjoying the highest standards of living in many years.. Obviously he is doing something good with the aid money... Especially considering that Israel has been very busy destroying the things he built...


You know, I don't think the suicide bomber wanted to die. Think of it as a soldier who throws himself on a grenade to save his friends... It's not a deathwish, it is a sacrifice. The suicide bomber is trying to help his people the only way he sees fit. Whether this is a good way is another question.

I would like to remind that this is a counterproductive strategy (much like the Israeli 'retalitory attacks'), if indeed Israel is trying to create a safer situation.

Is Israel any safer now that this man is dead instead of locked away in prison? Doubtful. But every single future suicide bomber knows that giving up only means summary execution. This means they will fight to the utmost to take someone with them if they are caught... Which will inevitably lead to more deaths. Even if ten suicide bombers are killed immediately, it only takes one person who instead of giving up does manage to kill a bystander for this policy to be a complete failure...

And don't take just my words for it... This is well known in warfare. In ww2, Gobbels propaganda machine spent considerable effort in manufacturing footage from fictional British POW camps, showing how germans soldiers were tortured to death. The brits, on the other hand, allocated airplanes that could have carried bombs to carry fliers in stead, with testaments from german soliders who were actually POWs... All to influence the likelyhood of german soliders to give up instead of fighting to the last man.


Siro, you seem to have misunderstood the entire critisism of the Isralei assassination policy. The people you assassinate are not even tried in a court of law in their absence. They are identified as terrorists by the army, who summarliy executes them. This puts you on par with Stalin, Hirohito etc.

The whole point is that civilized nations doesn't do that.


Dalgetti and Siro:
You both seem to have misunderstood the whole concept of 'innocent until proven guilty'.

If I shoot Bush on national TV and put down my gun immediately afterwards, I am innocent until a court of law has proven me guilty. That the conviction is a foregone conclusion is not relevant. and if a cop would shoot me as I'm lying on the ground with handcuffs on me, that cop would go to jail for shooting an unarmed man. Only if I'm threatening someones life can the cop shoot me.

And in this case it is very clear (at least from the story) that the man was not posing a threat. the police who shot him is a murderer, and should be sentenced as such. If someone gave an order to shoot him, it is even worse...

Of course, if the police can give a reasonable explanation, such as 'he was reaching for a trigger', that would be a different story. But apparently the initial police report stated that he was shot because he resisted the police when they tried to remove his cloak...

This was before the pictures were shown, however, where it is very clear that he is not wearing a cloak when he was shot.

It is a typical coverup, only revelead by the coincidental presense of a reporter.

And if nothing else, it should make you think... How many times have similar things happened when no reporter was present? How many palestinian accusation of brutality or premediated murder which you've written of as propaganda were actually true?


Dalgetti, there are a whole series of pictures, showing how they subdue him, take of his clothes, and finally shoot him.

Furthermore, the disarming exciuse doesn't fly. If they wanted to disarm the bomb safely, the easiest thing would have been to tie his legs together, put a sharpshooter on him, untie his hands and run... and tell him that if he doesn;t remove the bomb belt he will be shot. But he never got that chance...