Take no prisoners...

[Ecthy]

can't a mobile squad do the same?

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
If the Apache can hover at 12,000 feet it's not due to ground effect.

Some confusion in the stat - since the lift of a helo is more critically dependent on air density, you measure the highest altitude / temp / humidity in which a hover can be achieved - both in and out of ground effect.

Think of an LZ at 12,000 feet, or trying to follow a turning road or canyon course at brushtop elevations at that altitude - that really defines the limits of the combat performance of the helo, because if you have to maintain translational lift to avoid losing altitude, you either have to operate much higher off the ground to give you a margin of safety, or your horizontal maneuvers have to be gradual enough (not what a gunship is about) to prevent loss of translational lift from hard "kickover" turns where you bleed off forward speed and take advantage of main rotor torque to whip the nose of the helo around faster than any ordinary turn.

In either event, once you're above the highest elevation at which you can hold the bird in a hover, your combat maneuverability is severely compromised.

Zobo - yes, the A-10 can be used in that role, but it's not really ideal. The ammo on the Apache chain gun, and the rapid maneuverability of the gun off the flight axis (linked to the gunners helmet) really gives the Apache the edge in shooting-gallery situations like that where you're just being directed onto small pockets of moving infantry.

Horsie - I'm sure they're pretty resilient at hundreds of rounds of 2.75 inch rockets and thousands of rounds of HE 30mm chain gun ammo blowing their limbs and guts all over that high desert country. Some are probably so resilient they're positively elastic.

We have to use infantry to take that ground, but nothing says we have to leave many of them alive for the infantry to deal with.

If they hole up, kill 'em like rats in their holes, if they move, the Apaches and mountain artillery can do a little shred and spread.

They're determined to die for Allah - we're determined to help them achieve that goal. What a deal.

[Alexander's Horse]

What inspires more awe? The high tech wizzbangs or the fact that some stubborn little ***** is still shooting at you after all that has been dropped on him?

[faded glory]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
What inspires more awe? The high tech wizzbangs or the fact that some stubborn little ***** is still shooting at you after all that has been dropped on him?

Thats the thing. Reports are, our troops are moving forward. Fire is a hell of a lot lighter than before the air-strikes. which means 1) We killed a whole lotta those guys (2)There running out of ammo and simply fell back.(3) Its a ruse to get us to move a bit closer.


Either way there doomed. As MTG pointed out. You cannot hide from apache's with Thermal imaging. Especially if your in the open. Or a cave.....I have to feel bad for those suckers. I can imagine quite a few have wet/soiled there pants at the percussions of the B-52 blasts and Diasycutters.



Serb, the Russian army was crushed because the afghans hated them. They carpet bombed Herat, Khandahar, and dozens of other cities. Only Kabul was really spared. The Russians went in with there T-62's and Hind E gunships. Right into valleys, right into ravines. Right were the afghans wanted them. 15,000 Soviets died. mainly cause of the Communist's Political unwillingness to give command to the general. Stories of Russian pilots armed with clusterbombs flying over hundreds of Mujahadeen, yet unable to attack them because there orders were to go bomb some supply building. Lack of Flexibility, unwillingness to go up in the mountains and track the Muja's down. The Roads were so badly ambushed, the last 2 years of the war the Russians had to Fly in all there supplys through Air.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
What inspires more awe? The high tech wizzbangs or the fact that some stubborn little ***** is still shooting at you after all that has been dropped on him?

If he's still shooting, you didn't drop enough close enough. When the mother****er is wandering around in a daze (or more likely rolling on the ground moaning and holding his head) with his eardrums blown out, coughing up blood from the result of an overpressure bomb, with blood oozing from eyes and nose, then you've properly prepped the area for the infantry to come in and finish the job.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by faded glory



Thats the thing. Reports are, our troops are moving forward. Fire is a hell of a lot lighter than before the air-strikes. which means 1) We killed a whole lotta those guys (2)There running out of ammo and simply fell back.(3) Its a ruse to get us to move a bit closer.


Either way there doomed. As MTG pointed out. You cannot hide from apache's with Thermal imaging. Especially if your in the open. Or a cave.....I have to feel bad for those suckers. I can imagine quite a few have wet/soiled there pants at the percussions of the B-52 blasts and Diasycutters.



Serb, the Russian army was crushed because the afghans hated them. They carpet bombed Herat, Khandahar, and dozens of other cities. Only Kabul was really spared. The Russians went in with there T-62's and Hind E gunships. Right into valleys, right into ravines. Right were the afghans wanted them. 15,000 Soviets died. mainly cause of the Communist's Political unwillingness to give command to the general. Stories of Russian pilots armed with clusterbombs flying over hundreds of Mujahadeen, yet unable to attack them because there orders were to go bomb some supply building. Lack of Flexibility, unwillingness to go up in the mountains and track the Muja's down. The Roads were so badly ambushed, the last 2 years of the war the Russians had to Fly in all there supplys through Air.

Also, they weren't worn down by more than ywo decades of continuous warfare. Something like that could make you wonder what you're fighting for. I wonder, among the Taliban groups that have reorganized and renewed the fight, how many are Afghanis and how many are foreigners?

[Spam Shark]

I may have missed this in the news reporting of this incident but, have any of the international organizations that complained about US treatment of Al-Queda and Taliban prisoners in Cuba initiated any protests about the treatment of captured US servicemen like the one here who was apparently summarily executed? Just wondering if they are going to keep the boys on the other side feet to the fire in regards to prisoners as well.

[Dr Strangelove]

OTOH, since the entire al-Queda has gone underground, who would they issue the complaint to?

[Alexander's Horse]

I just saw vision of the fighting - doesn't look its all over yet.

If all these high tech weapons were so effective the battle would be over in an hour.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Yes, Horsie, they're totally ineffective. In breaking news, sabers and cavalry charges are making a comeback.

[Roland]

MtG:

"ok - I was referring in general to the fighthing around Mazar-e-Sharif earlier on."

Well that was nice, that they had to keep frontlines against the NA that were just taylor-made for bombing.

"Biggest reason for moving is food and water"

How's the snow situation in those mountains ? As for food, that is a possibility. Or they may just be stocked up. How can we know ?

"Nothing indicates concentrations that big"

The description quoted by CNN sounded like lawnmowing to me.

"They're stuck with moving out of cover, in the open, or staying in place and running out of food and water. That country also has nothing to sustain them - neither food nor water, so their concentration in the overall area really makes them move further and further to keep supplied."

Which makes me wonder why they would concentrate there. It does not look like a flight-to-somewhere. Why not duck and cover, or play your assets to the warlords ? They may be lunatics, but have shown a certain grip on logic so far.

"Yeah - they're weenies."

??

I meant, since when does CNN bother about confirmation ?

[Roland]

From CNN to a more... shall we say, encompassing, source:

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/07/international/asia/07FIGH.html

The mystery surrounding the combat death of a Navy Seal deepened today as Pentagon officials said the commando's search-and-rescue beacon was activated by hand after he tumbled from a helicopter in Afghanistan.

That fact, contained in classified after-action reports reaching Washington, was interpreted by some Pentagon officials and military officers as proof that Petty Officer Neil C. Roberts, 32, survived his fall from an MH-47 Chinook helicopter that was ferrying Special Operations forces into battle near Gardez.

Even so, the officials could not say with certainty whether Petty Officer Roberts then died from injuries he had already received, either from his fall or from enemy fire, or whether he subsequently died at the hands of enemy forces after being captured.

"The general feeling here is that after he fell from the helicopter he turned on the strobe," said one military officer.

Another official who has read the after-action reports said: "He was alive when he left the chopper. We don't know how he was wounded. We're not sure how he died."

Other officials cautioned that Petty Officer Roberts might not have survived his fall from the helicopter as it abruptly changed course when it come under fire on Sunday.

If he did die immediately from his fall, it is possible that adversaries coming upon his body figured out how to turn on the homing device in hopes of luring American rescuers into an ambush, those officials said.

In the minutes after Petty Officer Roberts fell from the helicopter, commanders monitoring video from a Predator unmanned surveillance plane said they had seen adversaries seize the Navy commando.

"We saw him on the Predator, being dragged off by three Al Qaeda men," Maj. Gen. Frank L. Hagenbeck, the commander of the 10th Mountain Division, who is in charge of the ground operation in Afghanistan, said Tuesday.

The petty officer's body, apparently abandoned by the enemy, was flown off the battlefield on Monday after Special Operations forces fought off troops suspected of belonging to Al Qaeda and the Taliban for 12 hours before rescue helicopters arrived.

No cause of death has been determined for Petty Officer Roberts, although Pentagon officials said his body showed signs of a critical bullet wound.

At the Pentagon today, Gen. Tommy R. Franks, the top commander of operations in Afghanistan, and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said they had not seen the Predator video and declined to speculate on how Petty Officer Roberts had died.

"I will tell you that I have talked to three, maybe four people who were either present or have reviewed the result of this," General Franks said, "and it would probably not surprise you that each of the three or four has a different view of what happened."

Secretary Rumsfeld said the important issue was that "a fine American's dead."