... Therefore God does not exist.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by Zealot


I just can't believe in the theory of evolution, because in the real world little things like proteins and aminoacids don't just get connected neither transform themselves into something that seems to be well succeeded by chance. So I'm not the best person to answer... But I honestly think not...

In the real world do the likes of Angels reveal themselves to you?

[Tiamat]

I don't know if I believe the 6 day myth. I find it hard to believe that it could come about in a mere 6 days.

I have had an experience with what I thought was an angle or spirit. It occurred on the 4th day after my mothers death. For the first three days I found myself awakened at 3:00 a.m. each night at the same time. No reason for the wakening....just awake. On the 4th night again at 3:00 something appeared in my room that seemed to be hovering off the ground....the only way I know how to describe it was white and flowing. When I saw it I screamed "MOM!" and threw the covers over my head.

When I told my father about it I thought he would think me a bit daft but he said no.....that he believed it to be my mother. He felt that if she could have come back to comfort me in some way that she would have.

[Goingonit]

Belief in the existence of God is not illogical. However, belief in the existence of the God shown to us in the Bible is.

Zealot et al., why would God intervene in the beginning of time to create us, and during a 2000-year segment in the middle, and at assorted other times, but be surprisingly absent for the numerous catastrophes that have befallen humanity in modern times?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by Wraith
The "Invisible Pink Unicorn" theory has been around quite a while. It's just fun, is all.

No - it is silly and offensive to people who believe in God. This is its intention I believe.

As has been pointed out, assuming the existence of a god does nothing to answer any of those questions, either. Not only do you get the same "what was before god?" and "where did god come from?" you also get the "why did god create a universe?" level of questions.

Did you not read my post? Questions like 'what was there before time?' are not well defined questions. It is not a case of us just not knowing the answer, or not being clever enough to understand the answer - there is no answer because the question doesn't make sense.

--"It cannot say why the physical laws are as they are, or where they come from fundamentally."

Actually, high-energy particle physics can at least partially answer some of these questions. Explorations of how the universe would be different with minor changes of physical laws are not outside the realms of science, nor are things like many worlds theory, which can also address at least some of this.

This is not what I was meaning. In physics we try to come up with theories which describe the universe, and have predictive power. We think up some principle which naturally leads to laws (or equations if you like) which we then test with experiment to see if they are correct. At the moment we have lots of laws, which are unrelated (or only slightly related) to one another. The goal of a theory of everything is to combine all of these laws into one law, so that all the individual laws are just special cases of the same thing. However, at the end you are still left with one law (or principle from which it is derived). You cannot further combine one law with itself to get no laws at all - therefore there will at best be one law (or principle) which we cannot explain. Where did it come from?

This question, by very definition, is philosophical, and science makes no attempt to explain it. If science can further simplify this single law then it is not by definition the final theory.

--"Was discovering that the protons are made of quarks and gluons laying just another unnecessary layer to the problem of the structure of matter, in your opinion?"

Of course not. They are actually there. Their existence has been determined by experimentation. These experiments can be reproduced independently by others. In fact, the discoveries of things like quarks has helped move us closer to the Grand Unified Theory of Everything. Knowing more about the fundamental particles allows us a better basis to make such theories on.

Of course they are there. That was my whole point ( ). Finding real things that exist and using them to answer questions about the universe is not laying 'unecessary layers' onto our concept of the universe.

I do admit, the cases are somewhat different - we will never be able to prove that God exists, while we can 'prove' that quarks exist (I use inverted commas since no-one has actually directly observed a quark or gluon in experiment - we only observe their effects). But this is just the difference between science and philosophy - should we stop all philosophical thought too?

For your information, a Grand Unified Theory (or GUT) attempts to combine the electromagnetic, the weak and the strong interactions into one theory. A Theory of Everything is an attempt to combine this with gravity. The discovery of quarks did very little to advance a GUT because in our current models, the strong, the electromagnetic and the weak interactions are still all separate. All attempt to combine them so far have problems. (It did a little bit to move us forward because the three theoies are actually now very similar to each other.)

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Just for my information Rogan, are you a physicist?

[Rogan Josh]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
Just for my information Rogan, are you a physicist?

Yes - I am a high-energy particle physics theorist, working at CERN.

[Zealot]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
In the real world do the likes of Angels reveal themselves to you?

No. I'm not different than you! Unless your were thinking about those spirits Tiamat just referd to. Thankfully, no.

Originally posted by Goingonit
Zealot et al., why would God intervene in the beginning of time to create us, and during a 2000-year segment in the middle, and at assorted other times, but be surprisingly absent for the numerous catastrophes that have befallen humanity in modern times?

That is a really good question, and a pretty valid doubt!
But the answer is quite simple, and not anything spectacular.

For several thousand years the Israelites were considered God's chosen people. Yet, many of them did not follow God's law, and created dificulties for those with good heart that wished to follow God's law.
As many of you might know, the Israelites were punished for rebellion and worshiping Gods of the neighbour countries. And this is part of the whole Israelite history.
This changed when Jesus preached that the Gentiles could worship God beside the Jews. Because what was in cause was now not a nationality, but a religion. What mattered since then was those who wanted to worship God, and so that those who didn't want to would further be judged for their acts!
That's why the long silence. Since those who worship God and follow His law are now the chosen, whatever their nationality may be.

Bear in mind that since divine intervention, a messiah, and several prophets didn't correct the Israelite rebels, then it is proven that those who have no faith, or wish not to have anything involved with religion, and those who worship false Gods would not start worshiping the only existing God if He had given proof of his existence. Therefore, only those who love Him will get rewarded with eternal life.

And since no one can love someone he/she doesn't know about, that's why Jesus said (Mathew 24:14):
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Everybody will have a chance to make a stand whether to follow God's law or not.

Did I manage to make me clear?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Rogan Josh


Yes - I am a high-energy particle physics theorist, working at CERN.

impressive... anyway nice to see that you still leave the option for God open even you are in science over your head



To zelaot,

well this is a christian take on the problem, what happens with all who do not know for the existance of christian god? Do they burn in hell or?

How can a just God make a difference between equal people who are only born at different places. There you have a contradiction.

Either it is not so as you explained or the God is not just which in turn is equal that he does not exist (at least not the one you believe in).

[Zealot]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
To zealot,

well this is a christian take on the problem, what happens with all who do not know for the existance of christian god? Do they burn in hell or?

edited: I'm sorry I misinterpreted your question!
If you mean in the past, (an Inca or Aztec prior to the "Conquista", for example), they will benefit the ressurection, if in his life he wasn't any killer or anything. Yet, you can't apply what I just said as a rule, since I'm nt God, and I'm not the one who will judge who will deserve the ressurection or not!

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
How can a just God make a difference between equal people who are only born at different places. There you have a contradiction.

Either it is not so as you explained or the God is not just which in turn is equal that he does not exist (at least not the one you believe in).

I'm really sorry, but I really can't understand what you wrote.
Could you rephrase, please?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Ok If I understood correctly

Therefore, only those who love Him will get rewarded with eternal life. And since no one can love someone he/she doesn't know about, that's why Jesus said (Mathew 24:14):
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Everybody will have a chance to make a stand whether to follow God's law or not.

from that one could understand this:

people who do not know God are going to die forever. Only at the end of times they will all know him.

So all that have been before and have been born at the wrong place - like in China, will be doomed to death just because they did not know God, and did not get the chance to love him just because of the birthplace.
And don't forget that we deal with an idea of omnipresent and omnipotent god who can make himself known to the whole world at will.

This is not just.

SO your god is either unjust, or you didn't understand him well.

This feels off-topic though, but this is one of the problems of Christian understanding of God.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

just to take this a bit further

A God that is omnipresent surely sees what we are writing here, and if he feels offended or if he feels that he can teach us something// whatever correct our opinion, an omnipotent God could definitly request a login - God - (even though Ming would disable him quickly )and tell us what it is all about. Obviously even as this would be handy for us and wouldn't be a problem for and omnipotent being this is not on his schledule, or better to say there is a good reasoin for him not to do it, a reason that we don't know, nevertheless he could have a reason we wouldn't understand.

While his inaction on this forum is understandable, his inaction in all the catastrophes all over the world is not, not for an loving/ caring God who sees it all and can correct it while he is doing nothing, nothing at all from our perspective. Not even for the toatally innocent like small children, and everyone dies or gets injured - randomly as being on the wrong place at the wrong time describes it best.

So his inactivity leads to a conclusion that this god is invisible or imaginationary. Like the pink unicorn. One would expect the Christian god to be active by definition, while he doesn't seem to be. That is why it seems reasonable to atheists to believe that there is no God. ... Therefore the God does not exist.

What about you? Do you see God working on this earth now, or is it just the tradition you follow?

[Zealot]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
from that one could understand this:

people who do not know God are going to die forever. Only at the end of times they will all know him.

Not exactly. Those who don't know Him because never heard of Him might have a second life, after the Armageddon. For those who don't live by God's law because they don't want to, then they only have one life, the one we all have. Once dead, they remain dead. There is no reward for those who don't like/don't want to know Him.

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
So all that have been before and have been born at the wrong place - like in China, will be doomed to death just because they did not know God, and did not get the chance to love him just because of the birthplace.

No, no one is doomed by God or by the luck they have in life. That's why Christians have the obligation to teach wich are the purposes of God for the humanity. That's why God's law must be teached to all before the end. So that no one shall be accused of ignorance because there was no one to teach. That's why I quoted Mathew 24:14.

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
And don't forget that we deal with an idea of omnipresent and omnipotent god who can make himself known to the whole world at will.

Yes, but part of humanity keeps rejecting God! It happened with the Israelites, with the nations around Israel, and even with Christianism around the world! History teaches that divine intervention doesn't make people to live by justice, love, peace, benevolence, and other qualities that give hapiness! So why do you keep demanding divine intervention, instead of seeking what is His will, and what might God require from us?

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
This is not just.

SO your god is either unjust, or you didn't understand him well.

Me?

[OneFootInTheGrave]

So the god that you believe in does not act in this world. Is that true?

[Zealot]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
So the god that you believe in does not act in this world. Is that true?

Not right now, no.
He stoped intervening on Earth when the Israelites were really despising His law, and He allowed the destruction of the Temple by the Babylonians, in 607 BCE.

You could count the earthquake that hit Jerusalem when Jesus died, but I can't precise if it was caused by God or not.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Zealot


Not right now, no.
He stoped intervening on Earth when the Israelites were really despising His law, and He allowed the destruction of the Temple by the Babylonians, in 607 BCE.

You could count the earthquake that hit Jerusalem when Jesus died, but I can't precise if it was caused by God or not.

well that is interesting, well than how can can you believe that an inactive God exists, well when there is no proof now, apart from some ancient testimony, that might have been made by the people who did not understand scientific ways of today, to whom the idea of God was the best explanation of everything unexplainable, and who could have been making up the stories (like other tribes, Germans, Bablonyans, Indians, etc..).

Therefore an idea about the inactive God does not appeal to the modern people since there is no need for him, we can have other ways of explaining how the universe works, without relying on 2000 year old possible myths. Because that idea seems more reasonable than the idea of an inactive God.

(off topic)
Still so everyone can is equal at birth, which is how it should be, but the word still has to go out to make the plan available to all - there is still an inconsistency related to TIME. - under the premise that all the people are born equal no matter when. How could one be accused of ignorance if their grandchildrend did not consciously find out who the God was? Therefore there is no point in spread of the gospel if all of those who will die before it gets to them will get a second chance. (nevermind off-topic).

Obviously we cannot answer the question why by science, but the answer in the shape of Christian god is not fulfilling either. I personally am not satisfied with the idea - He is not acting now. He gave us the instructions, and we have to follow them, if not - sod it. I mean What if the stories about Odin the German god are true? How can I judge which one is correct? Maybe he is inactive for last 1000 years? - Who is the correct answer to "why?" becaue there is many choices, mainly differing by cultures. Therefore making the 'myth' solution a more probable choice. ... God is a myth and therefore God does not exist.