I need to read "What is the best MBT?" thread.

[Alexander's Horse]

One word: Kursk.

[Provost Harrison]

RUN FOR THE HILLS

[David Floyd]

One word: Kursk.

Yeah, but the Sovs had good intelligence and were heavily entrenched at Kursk.

By the same argument the Panzer IV was better than the early T-34 because of Smolensk, Kiev, etc.

[KrazyHorse]

EDIT: Oh. MBT = Main Battle Tank.

[Alexander's Horse]

Run along - it was before your time

[ravagon]

Originally posted by David Floyd
What a load of ****. There's no way the T34 was better than a Panther D, IMO, there were just more of them....

Yes but the Panther series had more technical/maintainance problems especially wrt the engine.

Originally posted by David Floyd
And so it begins anew

We can but hope!

[David Floyd]

Yes but the Panther series had more technical/maintainance problems especially wrt the engine.

True, but by the later production models - I'd say Panther D and above - those problems were getting worked out.

[MichaeltheGreat]

In terms of overall versatility, the StuG III G was far more important than the Panther series, even though it wasn't a tank, technically.

From a technological standpoint, the Panzer IV series is it - the only prewar design to go all the way through the war, and there are more features in modern MBTs that originated with the Panzer IV than with any WW2 or earlier tank.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Yeah, but the Sovs had good intelligence and were heavily entrenched at Kursk.

By the same argument the Panzer IV was better than the early T-34 because of Smolensk, Kiev, etc.

Actually the famous battle episodes at Kursk were tank on tank.

Do I need to rehearse the sections of Guderian's memoirs where he notes how much German tankers feared the T34 in 1941 and 1942 because rounds from their heaviest tank at that time, the Panzer IV, simply bounced off the T34's armour.

[David Floyd]

In terms of overall versatility, the StuG III G was far more important than the Panther series, even though it wasn't a tank, technically.

And technically we're talking about tanks

From a technological standpoint, the Panzer IV series is it - the only prewar design to go all the way through the war, and there are more features in modern MBTs that originated with the Panzer IV than with any WW2 or earlier tank.

Hmmm. Yes that's a good point, but even the Panzer IVH was getting a bit long in the tooth by the end of the war, don't you think?

Do I need to rehearse the sections of Guderian's memoirs where he notes how much German tankers feared the T34 in 1941 and 1942 because rounds from their heaviest tank at that time, the Panzer IV, simply bounced off the T34's armour.

Yes, but the Germans still won most of the battles

Actually the famous battle episodes at Kursk were tank on tank.

And IIRC, the losses were comparable - but favored the Soviets because they had more. I'd have to double check numbers on that though. And I'm primarily talking about the Battle of Prokorhovka, but of course there were others.

[Provost Harrison]

*decides now is the time to use that cyanide capsule in my tooth*

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by David Floyd


And technically we're talking about tanks

15,000 AFV (tank and TD) kills, and a 3:1 armor kill ratio across the entire production series says it's at least an "honorary" tank - especially because the only thing which could tangle with a 1941-1942 T-34 was the early StuG III B through D series, or else 88's in an AT role.

Hmmm. Yes that's a good point, but even the Panzer IVH was getting a bit long in the tooth by the end of the war, don't you think?

No longer in the tooth than the Sherman.

[monolith94]

Something about Chobham armor...

[David Floyd]

No longer in the tooth than the Sherman.

True, but up-gunned Shermans (Sherman 76s) weren't actually that bad.

[Alexander's Horse]

Floyd, as MTG mentions, the Germans won the battles in 41 and 42 against T34 because more by luck than good planning they had this handy little 88mm anti aircraft gun which they found worked quite well in the anti tank role.

The Tiger and Panther series were developed to counter the T34.