War!!!

[Soundwave]

Over the Past few nights I have been thinking, there is always two sides to every coin.

When I was young from about 9 onwards I would play War in the playground at school, I was fanasted by it. My Grand Fathers were both in the War in the New Zealand 1st Div that served in North Africa and Italy, they brought back pictures that amazed me, one of them brought a series called Images of War if anyone has seen them they will no what I mean. I always though I wanted there to be war, so people see how great it is, like nationalism, I wanted to join the army, and do fighting.. kill some dirty Germans (no offence please). Just the thought of it was cool and exciting.

After my early years I started reading about the holocaust and POWs being shot even after they surrender which is not honourable, but they had to do it to keep moving or on orders, or racial hatred. I went this period thinking this is not War its what monsters do not real men, soldiers of war, they are honourable.

As i am nearly 20 now I relize War is good and bad, mostly bad, but good in the fact that it lowers the population, but that it turn destroys your country or surronding ones. America has been very lucky never to be invading ever be hostile forces. For that they destroy other countries for the security of the World, which they must be in charge of? I always thought the Untied Nations was. I always respected the Waffen SS for the determation and fanatical fighting against all odds and brought more casualties to the Allies than anything esle.

Now War is bad, but has it ever been good? We kill brothers son, fathers and for what land? money? peace? I know you need to sacifice lives to save lives, for peace, so how come after all the lives lost there is no peace left, will we have to sacifice more and more?

I just want to know, us playing War Games and even Civ, are we glorifying War so when Kids grow up they wanna kill Germans or Arabs, because thats what they did in the Game, if not that maybe grow up with a racial hatred which the United Nations is trying to stop!?

In a final statement i'd just like to say from a quote i thought up:-
"But maybe there is something about what the Germans did, that exercizes a deadly fascination over us - something that opens the catacombs of the imagination that created the SS and wants us to make a SS of today" -Richards

[Paul Hanson]

Something about this post worries me quite a lot, but I can't quite put my finger on it.

[FM Pilsudski]

I have to agree, Paul. While there is nothing wrong in understanding-even having a minute bit of respect for- the Waffen SS, who did fight in overwhelming odds, the negatives of the SS-Death Camps, the Einsatzgruppen (sp?), liqudation of several nationalities, religious groups and others greatly overshadows whatever they did on the field of battle...

FM Pilsudski
Savior of the Polish Nation

[Cyrion]

Well, I don't want to take part in a lengthy debate, but just to share a few (personal) thoughts :

For me, war can't be anything glamourous (even if as a child I had the same fascination you did, Soundwave!! It must come from Hollywood or something...), because it's exactly what you wrote: killing brothers, fathers, sons, and even women and children (and please don't talk about "surgical strikes" delivered by B-52: it would be ridiculous if it wasn't so tragical...)!!!

BUT... sometimes you have to do something!! You can't just hope for the other guy to be nice, because there are bastards (in every country, not only in those you or me might see as enemy) that have to be stopped!! The only problem is knowing when to start, and even more when to stop!! And it's always difficult not to paint everything in Black & White, because you can always be sure there will be some honorable people on the other side as well, and some b***stards on yours!!


Not about what a game like Civ or any Wargames will have as an influence, it's not that easy... You can see it as a way to prepare people to seeing others as enemies ready to be destroyed, or as a "safety valve" helping to let off steam and so not getting a violent fascist in real life (what, is not Civing "real life"?? ). Actually I think it's not games like Civ that would do much, but rather more Education... Which would launch a debate in which I want even less to be caught than this one...

Sorry if I wasn't very clear about what I meant, but my english...

By the way, Soundwave, I would have prefered your post without the attachment... Not that I'm offended (quite difficult to achieve!!), but I'm not really sure what you meant with it

[Hendrik the Great]

I think soundwave must have attended the wrong kinds of school. But I don't know what they teach in American scholls, colleges or universities. But something there has gone terribly wrong. Perhaps you should pay a visit to some German Museums and former Camps in Germany or Poland. You won't find a sinlge human being that will be able to name you a good war. Perhaps America and its people have not yet realised what war really means...

Showing those kind of symbols if prohibited by law by the way over here. Naivity and dumbness never seems to die...

[Edit] The is no peace because every war that is fought will cause a new war and new suffering. History is full of those examples. Take a history book and name one good war. There aren't any.

[FM Pilsudski]

The problem with America and racism is that anything that the education system does in the positive, outside culture cancels out with the negative. I currently live in Alabama, in the deep South,
and there are MANY people here who wish we were still in the days of seperate lunch counters and restrooms for "Negroes."
BTW, we do have a problem with a racist symbol almost as bad as the swastika-the "Stars and Bars" flag of the Confederacy.
Problem is, lots of people still want it to fly over state goverment offices, etc. Unlike in Europe, where the swastika is the ultimate symbol of evil to pretty much everyone, many over here want to keep the Sats and Bars flying as a historical symbol.

FM Pilsudski
Savior of the Polish nation

[JamesJKirk]

I agree with you Pilsudski, having grown up in Virginia, I still have a memory from elementary school I'm 20 now) where a white kid called a kid in our class who was black "The N word" Now the kid was duly punished and everything, but what got me most was what the teacher said as she pulled the kid past my desk: "White people can be ******s too." That's I dunno...just bizarre to me.

I used to have a more ambiguous view of the battleflag, thinking the arguements that it was praising states-rights and all that stuff was valid. That was until I gave it serious thought and realized that first of all it offended many people, so that's no good, the heritage is of a "nation" that openly rebelled against the US and split apart solely as a result of slavery somewhat tied to the issue of state's rights. So that ended that for me. Although the Civil War itself is very interesting...Just that some event could tear apart the nation so much, it's just, I don't know.

Still, I'm still amazed at how far a lot of things have come in the South since I was growing up, it seems to be a much more multi-cultural tolerant place, while still clinging to it's nonconfederate sort of individual liberty mindset. Although I've never really been to the deep south.

But I digress...

I never thought of Soundwave as an American. Maybe it's just the rushedness of his speech. Anyway, I don't think his feelings are a result of an sort of education. First of all, I don't think our education system itself makes too much of a lasting impression on anyone who goes through it. But there is something, I don't know whether it's hollywood, or the confederate reverance or the ku klux klan, but something leads us to a fascination with WWII and Nazis. WWII is remembered as the good war to most, if not nearly all Americans. Maybe it's even Vietnam that leads (some of) us to that.

As opposed to the national shame, that I hear about in reference to Germany and the holocaust, we have a sense of national greatness that leads to thinking our country never did, never can, and never will do any wrong, which is completely antithetical to democracy and liberty.

Although, I don't agree with you about war always being negative. Some are just necessary, and they're usually caused by events bigger than any one person. I'd say the American revolution would be the example or a good war. Actually, most national liberation wars would be for a better good. As is our civil war, while I would agree that the southern states had a right to leave the union, I think the overall war was fought for good goals, although the postwar period did much to erode the victories. Also I think that just because war is bad doesn't mean one should roll over if another tries to trample over them or endanger them, this is my rationale for the "goodness" of the Republicans in the Spanish Civil War and the Allies in WWII. I'm sure you have a different point of view on this, and I'm sure I'd generally agree with you, I'm just saying it's not absolute that war is inherently evil

*whew*

[Exile]

Devil's Advocate

A comment about the confederate battle flag;

First, a personal disclaimer. I reside in Oklahoma. during the American Civil War, the only people fighting in Oklahoma were the Choctaws and Cherokees, and they were not fighting each other, but rival factions within their own tribes. I have no loyalties to either north/Union or south/confederacy.

However;

The confederacy was only doing precisely what the 13 colonies had done scarcely 90 some odd years earlier. The southern states declared themselves independent of a government they collectively found unacceptable (not to mention "foreign"). Although the issues at the heart of the conflict were different, the principle of rebellion against perceived tyranny was strikingly similar. In the 1770s, the rebellion succeeded, and a new nation was created. In the 1860s, the rebellion failed, and no new state came into being.

Now I'm going to predict that someone will answer this by completely ignoring my statement above about "different issues," and carp on about slavery-is-evil by way of a reply. Please try not to do that and stick to the principle mentioned--the legitimacy of rebellion. I think we can all agree that slavery is bad. Fine. Ok. But the real point is; can we condemn the southern states for the war, and, if we do, then we must also condemn the 13 colonies as well. There is an historical double standard here that few people like to address.

The confederate battle flag is not exclusively a symbol of hatred and racism. It is also a symbol of a (failed) national rebellion and spirit of independence. A comparison of the Confederate battle flag and the SchutzStaffel emblem is not valid; Apples and oranges--two different things.

Exile

[Scott F]

Why is this being discussed in the Scenario League?

[klesh]

I find it interesting that the end quote in soundwave's post is the same as the one in his sig...sans one phrase:

soundwave's Sig."But maybe there is something about what the Germans did, that exercizes a deadly fascination over us - something that opens the catacombs of the imagination that created the SS" -Richards

soundwave's end quote."But maybe there is something about what the Germans did, that exercizes a deadly fascination over us - something that opens the catacombs of the imagination that created the SS and wants us to make a SS of today" -Richards

What exactly is the point of this thread though? Soundwave's dicovery that war is 'good' because it reduces population? Strange. War sucks, it shouldnt happen, I just like to play video games. Thats all.

-FMK.

[Jimmywax]

Upon reading Soundwave's first post I wondering if this boys head was screwed on right. Now I have a very strong premonition that it isn't. War is never a good thing but is a necassary evil. Soundwave is entitled to his opinion just so long as he doesn't start trying to tell us that his opinion is the right opinion. This is not the place to discuss it though and this thread should be closed.

[Hendrik the Great]

I agree with Jimmywax. There is no good war. Sometimes it may be an unavoidable necessity. But it is still no good war. People die, it doens't matter on who's side, so it is bad and it will cause suffering. That's all there is to it. Truly, some may gain a profit from war, be it liberty, independence or the acces to oil and other resources. It's still wrong...

That's all I'm going to say to this.

[SetuSinger]

Fight war, not wars!

[Marko]

I was in Kashmir this summer, near Indian/Pakistan control line. And I know now many people from there. Simple, good people who want to live their ordinary life. Politicians far away in Delhi and Islamabad could argue about territories, history and ideology but for these people the possibility of next Indian-Pakistan war was terrible.

[Shaka Naldur]

war sucks, and is not a necessary evil

don´t like soundwave´s post