Canadian Warship Seizes Tanker In... Wait... Canada has a Warship?

[JohnT]

What's an Avro and why wasn't it important enough to you Canadians to save it?

[Asher]

Originally posted by JohnT
What's an Avro and why wasn't it important enough to you Canadians to save it?

Because the Americans threw around politics in the cold war. Basically, if you don't do what we say you're a commie.

Avro was an aeronautics company.
The Avro Arrow was the most advanced military aircraft ever made, decades ahead of its time. Several prototypes were built, and it was a huge success. Only expensive.

The US lobbied for Canada to destroy the product and buy some ****tier US planes, or else (essentially). The Federal government told the people it was too expensive to continue (bull****, as we found out later).
And so it was.

[H Tower]

Originally posted by Asher

The US government is solely responsible for the demise of Avro. It makes for great reading.
The Avro Arrow especially.
And the Avro Jetliner.

The what?

[Asher]

Here's a good link about it: http://web.idirect.com/~ccaft/arrow.html

Excerpt:

October 4, 1957, saw the official rollout of the first Avro Arrow a supersonic jet fighter designed and built in four short years. With the Arrow, Avro had created a brilliant aviation industry that drew to Canada international specialists at the top of their fields. After the unveiling, Aviation Week reported: "Avro CF105 Arrow has given Canada a serious contender for the top military aircraft of the next several years. The large, decidedly advanced deltawing fighter was rolled out of the Malton plant a few days ago... The Arrow's power, weight and general design leave little doubt of its performance potential."Flight, another international aviation magazine, called the Arrow "the biggest, most powerful, most expensive and potentially the fastest fighter that the world has yet seen." 4

On March 25, 1958, the Avro Arrow Mark I a "great, sleek, white bird," to one observer lifted gracefully from the runway and was airborne for the first time.5 The most advanced aircraft in the world, it exceeded all expectations. At threequarter throttle, the Arrow flew at nearly twice the speed of sound faster than the most advanced plane in the Canadian Air Force three decades later, the American F18.

The world speed record in 1958 was 1404 mph. The first five Arrows, fitted with temporary, less powerful engines, flew at 1320 mph. Into the sixth Arrow was installed the most advanced and the most powerful engine in the world, the brand new Iroquois, Canadian designed and built from scratch. On February 19, 1959, the Avro Arrow Mark II, fitted with Iroquois engines, was on the tarmac, being prepared for the test flight expected easily to break the world speed record. Behind it, another thirtyone Mark IIs, Iroquois equipped, were ready to roll down the assembly line.

Why was the Arrow cancelled? The official reason given by the government was that the missile age had dawned and manned jet fighter aircraft, including the Arrow, had become obsolete. Accordingly, the new American missile system, called the Bomarc missile system, was to be purchased, and because Canada could not afford both the Arrow and the Bomarc, the Arrow had to go. Behindthescenes pressure from the United States for Canada to buy the Bomarc a system that was untried, unproven and would eventually prove useless was direct and effective. In a meeting between the Canadian defence minister, George Pearkes, and the U.S. secretary of state for defence, Neil McElroy, the Canadian government asked what would happen if Canada refused to buy the Bomarc. The Canadians were told that "the consequence would be... the emplacement of at least one more Bomarc Squadron in the U.S., south of the Great Lakes."17 Because the Bomarc had a limited range of 250 miles, this would mean, in the advent of war against incoming Soviet missiles from the north, the certainty of nuclear holocaust above Canada's most densely populated regions. Consequently, the Canadian government decided to purchase the Bomarcs, put them further north in Canada, and terminate the Arrow.

Within two months of the Arrow's cancellation, Canadians were told that fighter aircraft to intercept Soviet bombers were still necessary after all. Ten months later, General Lawrence Kuter of the United States, Commanderinchief of the North American Air Defence agreement (NORAD), requested that Canada equip itself with supersonic fighters such as the American F101B. In 1961, Canada purchased sixtysix of these dated aircraft in no way comparable to the Arrow from the United States. Two decades later Canada would spend roughly $5 billion ($30 million per plane) purchasing the American F18A, an aircraft still inferior to the Arrow.

As for the Bomarc missile system, admitted by the Americans themselves to be entirely for the the defence of the American Strategic Air Command and not for Canada, it turned out to be an expensive dud which became obsolete before it was installed.

A significant but little known fact is that the Arrow was the only aircraft in the world capable of downing the new, top secret U2 spy plane developed by the CIA, which in the late 1950s was overflying countries around the globe. The U2 flew at an altitude of 70,000 feet, unreachable by any existing interceptor but well within the Arrow's range. In 1960, Defence Minister Pearkes admitted the U2 was overflying Canada and that without interceptor aircraft, Canada was powerless to police its own skies against such an intruder.

[JohnT]

What, did Avro not lobby? Since when does the US vote in Canadian elections?

Perhaps it went like this:

"We have $3 billion to spend. We can use it to buy 10 Avro's, or 100 F-15's. What do you think?"

Not that I'm trying to be sarcastic or anything, I'm just interested in the concept of Canada purposely destroying one of their companies on the behest of their neighbor.

With a backbone like that, it's no wonder that y'all had to wait for permission to leave the British Empire. You know, you could've beaten them 200 years earlier - why the delay?

[Asher]

Originally posted by JohnT
"We have $3 billion to spend. We can use it to buy 10 Avro's, or 100 F-15's. What do you think?"

That WAS the thinking. But with Bomarc missiles. Which were HORRIBLE and OVERPRICED and USELESS and not much cheaper than the Arrow.

The main reason was the Arrow could shoot down U2s. That's a no-no..

[gopher]

Originally posted by Asher

Well, if you define loss like that, sure.

I define loss as failed attempts to complete objectives.
You had an objective in the war to try to take Canada, and you failed (miserably).
Canada defended itself and, furthermore, burned down your capital.

I define that was a victory for Canada, and a loss for you.

Funny, in my Canadian Studies class (I know, I can't believe I took it, but it was great) we found out that while Americans believe they won the war, due to Battle of New Orleans, the destruction of Tecumseh, and end of British Aggression, Canadians feel they won because of stopping US aggression on their own. Funny how history works, eh?

BTW, yes we rebuilt the white house, but thats easier than rebuilding York/Toronto, although I hear that many canadians would like us to teach Toronto a lession, kind of like how many of us felt about NYC before 9.11

[Asher]

The real icing on the cake:

With the cancellation of the Arrow thousands of the highly skilled engineers, designers and aerospace workers, some gathered with great difficulty from all over the world, who for ten years had refused repeated offers from U.S. firms to leave Canada, were thrown out of work and now had little choice. Twentysix of Avro's top engineers, including Jim Chamberlin from British Columbia, Avro's chief of design, were sent by the Canadian government to NASA, where their skills played a crucial role in landing an American on the moon. Chamberlin was later described by NASA management as "probably one of the most brilliant men ever to work with NASA." Highly skilled Avro engineers made their contributions in almost all fields of aviation and technology throughout the Western world, not only with NASA but also with Boeing of Seattle, RCA in Massachussetts, HawkerSiddeley of England, Fokker of Holland, and the European Space Agency.

[H Tower]

all that just proves the US has more states than 50

[Zylka]

Satire Wire?

Wow. It's like a B grade Onion for Stupid people.

[Imran Siddiqui]

That wasn't the main objective of the war but we failed to achieve that one as well.

No, the main objectives was to stop impressment of American sailors, and to get British forts out of the Ohio Valley. How to do that? By smacking around the Brits a bit and proving that we weren't pushovers.

Hell, we took on the strongest military power at the time and fought them to a standstill. Not bad.

And the Canucks keep refering to the fact that they burned the White House down, but you notice they forget (interestingly) that earlier in the war, the Canadian capital of York (present day Toronto) was burned down. Selective memory?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And the Canucks keep refering to the fact that they burned the White House down, but you notice they forget (interestingly) that earlier in the war, the Canadian capital of York (present day Toronto) was burned down. Selective memory?

Burning down Toronto is another victory for all Albertans.

[Gatekeeper]

Everyone:

Quick! Activate the MtG-signal! We need him to dissect this whole Avro argument from a military man's POV.

CYBERAmazon

[Asher]

Facts are facts: It was an awesome plane.

Ahead of its time.

So much so, in fact, that the US government forced the cowardly Canadian government to destroy it and use US planes instead.

[Goingonit]

The Avro Arrow was canceled was canceled because the US relied on military production to boost its economy. If they started buying foreign-made planes, suddenly a whole lot of American workers would be out of jobs. They couldn't afford it, not in monetary cost but in economic cost.