Jews for Jesus

[Imran Siddiqui]

So what? Christian means (basically) follower of Christ. You reject that simply because a few in your flock tend to go too far??

[Robert]

A's horse: The mainstream authorities of all the major biblical
religions - that is Judaism, Christianity and Islam, are constantly trying
to draw sharp barriers between the various faiths but actually there is a
lot of overlap

I know that those who draw the barriers are concidered to be the 'bad boys'
or the 'fundamentalists'. But I think that 'ignoring the barriers' isn't
that good either. I wonder how serious you take your own opinion about the
most important thing in life, if you want to dismiss the most critical parts
of your belief.

The overlap we, christians, have with the jews is big.
In fact we share the complete Old Testament. We believe that the Jews are
the 'chosen people' and that you can become rightious by keeping the laws of
God.

But after that we believe that God didn't leave us, humans, behind with
impossible ways to become rightious. (keeping the laws without any mistake
ever)

That's why I only want to draw one barrier, one difference and that's Jesus.
It's a barrier that can't be ignored in any way.
Thus it's the core of christianity and the core of judaism / muslims that
doesn't match.

Both muslims and jews believe that man can please god, and live a rigthious
life. They believe in mankind. Christians are completely oposite. We believe
in the complete fallacy of mankind, and the impossibility to live a
rigthious life. And since that's the core of both believe systems, we hardly
share anything.

In fact I think there are only 2 kinds of religions / ways of life.
1. believe in your own power, live a rightious life (and please the gods)
- atheism
- judaism
- muslims
- budism
- zorastrianism
- hundu
- ancient religions

2. believe in your own fallacy, be unable to live a rightious live, be
dependant on the gods.
- christianity

I concider the faith systems belonging to category 1 to be the result of our
fall. The bible teaches us that the first sin was wanting to be like god.
Wanting to be independant to god. There is no overlap, eventhough we might
share the same books and stories. The core of the believe systems is
completely different.

I wish it was different. I hope everyone will 'get saved'. But since I'm not
the one that makes the decisions on that I can't do anything but spreading
mine, hoping people will understand...

CyberShy

[mactbone]

Jew = Anyone who follows the Old Testament and is genetically linked
Christian = Anyone who follows Jesus
----Orthodox = Pope is not authority, "and son" is taken out when describing Holy Ghost, many sects
----Catholic = Pope supreme, changed since inception
----Protestant = Pope not supreme, clergyman can marry, many sects
Muslim = Mohammed was a prophet(messiah too?)
----Shiite = those who followed Mohammed's ancestors?
----Sunni = those who didn't/don't?

Is this about right???

[Robert]

While they believe Jesus is the Messiah, do they believe that he is the son of God?

yes.

Saint Paul also preached to the Gentiles which the first Christians didn't approve of either.

not true.
The first christians disagreed with Paul that he didn't teach the laws to the gentiles.

They are Jews in the sense of being born of Jewish mothers, but they are not practicing Judaism

they are, they are practicing post-Messiah Judaism while the other jews are practicing pre-Messiah Judaism.

It has always been the Jewish belief that Jesus was not and could not have been the Messiah, and that his teachings were contrary to the laws of Judaism.

None of the jews scriptures that are believed to be inspired by God (Old Testament books) say that Jesus is not the Messiah.
Human beings that didn't want Jesus to be the Messiah teached that he wasn't. But that's not the 'ancient' judaistic religion.

After all it's God who'll decide who's the Messiah, and not the jews themselves.

His teachings were not contrary the laws of Judaism. His teachings were another interpertation of these laws prophecies than the jews of those days had.

No, Judaism rejects Jesus. That's what Judaism means.

Tell me what part of the Old Testament says that Jesus is *NOT* the Messiah......

Judaism and Christianity are separate religions and to say otherwise is oxymoronic.

that's right. a Messian Jew is following another religion than an OT-Jew. But that doesn't mean that the MJ is not a jew, and not following the Judaistic religion.

In fact christianity is a part of the judaistic religion, according to the christians.

These Jews for Jesus people do seem a bit cultish. But that could just be a slur.

why cultish ? THey've always been there !
The first christians were 'Jews for Jesus'

I don't know how they read the Acts of the Apostles where the early Christians had a big debate and decided they didn't have to follow Mosaic law (the uncircumcised breathed a sigh of relief on that one!).

exactly as it's supposed to be read. There is a difference between the christian-jews and the gentile-jews. That's what the passage says. Romans and Galatians say more about it. And of course Paul's letter to the Hebrews.

The thing is, Judaism is absolutely insistent that the Talmud be respected as the source of religious law

The talmut dates from after Jesus.
The talmut has not been a part of Judaism since the early beginning. The Talmut-following jews are following teachers like the Jesus-following jews are. Why does the 'talmut-sect' has the right to be named jews while the 'jesus-sect' hasn't ?
That's like the protestants tell the catholics they aren't christians.

Because the idea that God came to Earth as a human being, died for humanity's sins, and made it obligatory for all to acknowledge his coming to be "saved," is not consistant with Judaism

why not ?
It's not consistant with the explanations the jews gave to the Old Testament's prophecies. I think it's up to God to decide upon the interpetation of these prophecies.

But more importantly, Jesus's sermons against the Pharisees contradict the teachings of Judaism, and the two are not compatible.

Oh no, the Pharisees had an interpetation of the OT.
Jesus disagreed with that interpetation. He did not disagree with Judaism.

It's been a while since I've read this history, but, if memory serves, Christ's disciples were split into two factions

How do you know ?
Any sources for this ?
And what source does your source have ? He/She was an eye-witness or is it just another interpetation from someone who wants christianity to look bad ?
In fact all of these interpetations are nothing more or less than subjective brainwaves about the biblical passages.

Supposed signs of the Messiah:
-Total world peace
-Everyone believes in the One True God TM (would take a miracle)

the prophecies don't talk about his first coming or second coming.

-A King of the House of David in Jerusalem AND a (seperate) high priest in a rebuilt Temple (of the line of Aaron, not too difficult at least).

applies to Jesus.
the 'seperate' part is an interpetation.

-A resumption of animal sacrifices

false interpetation.
Jesus offer was the 'final sacrifce'
that's what the passage means.

which makes me think the whole thing is a little wierd. Why is waving goats blood at an altar pleasing to the great god

it's not. All the sacrifise thing was is a sign of the final offer of Jesus.

-Israel shall have its 'natural' borders back (for any nationalist, your countries natural borders are the largest you can possibly claim

dito pt.1

Christianity and Judaism are very different. For Jews, there is no son of God. God is one, not three.

christians believe God is one as well.
But God has more 'personalities'
Like I'm the friend of my girlfriend, the son of my father and the employee of my boss.

The whole ideas of grace and confession never figure into Judaism at all. The Jewish idea is that by deeds alone can you be righteous

excuse me ? Did you ever read Psalm 51 ?

When the Messiah comes, a whole lot of supernatural things happen, like the Temple is rebuilt and all the dead rise up. It's safe to say you'd know it if you saw it.

second coming

Cybershy, you oughta check it out

quote him here. I hate link-wars.

1. Kingship is passed via the father (patrilineal). It doesn't matter who Mary was related to. Jesus was not a king from the line of David (virgin birth).

Jesus is an ancessor of David via Mary.
The OT prophecied that Jesus would come forth out of the seed of David. And he did. No excuses like 'Mary is not the father, she's just a woman'.

2. The prophecy foretells that when the Messiah comes, all nations will know and worship the One God (TM). It doesn't say when he comes, leaves, then comes again. There were many religions in 4BC

it doesn't say it won't be that way either.

3. The arrival of the Messiah will begin an era of world peace. Didn't happen with Jesus.

2nd coming

6. The prophecy foretells that animal sacrifices will resume with the return of the Messiah, after a period where they have stopped. Jesus struck out on this one too.

it resumed once, with the sacrifision of Jesus himself.

7. He also brings up the excellent point that Jesus never actually claimed to be God:

oh yes, Jesus did.

CyberShy

[Zealot]

Cyber, you don't really realize how much BS you just posted, did you?

I didn't read all your post because I really have to go, but let me just tell you that Christ is not the same as God, the Almighty God, creator of the universe. Jesus was God's first creation, as in John 1:1-3!

Gotta go.

[Robert]

Cyber, you don't really realize how much BS you just posted, did you?

I didn't read all your post because I really have to go,

1. how can you know while you didn't even read all of it ?
2. I'm getting VERY BORED talking with guys like you. if you have no time, don't post at all. Saying that something is 'BS' is EASY EASY EASY. Now prove it with arguments, you simple minded one-liner...........! It's either shut up or come with arguments.

but let me just tell you that Christ is not the same as God, the Almighty God, creator of the universe. Jesus was God's first creation, as in John 1:1-3!

Gotta go.

"In the begging there was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God."

(translated it from dutch, since I know the dutch line by heart)
I have no clue how this passages proves your point.

[Zealot]

Hum, ok, I think it wasn't correct from me. Sorry. You gave a good post, but you had the misfortune that I just read the parts that I consider to not be true.

Which are:

Christianity and Judaism are very different. For Jews, there is no son of God. God is one, not three.



christians believe God is one as well.
But God has more 'personalities'
Like I'm the friend of my girlfriend, the son of my father and the employee of my boss.

What could you possibly mean with personalities?!? It's true that God is one person, and Jesus is another, while the Holy Ghost is God's active "force", not a person. God is one, not three.

and:

7. He also brings up the excellent point that Jesus never actually claimed to be God:



oh yes, Jesus did.

No, He didn't! What he said, several times, was that whoever sees Him could see The Father; and He was talking about the behaviour, not the person by itself.

I have no clue how this passages proves your point.

What I'm trying to prove is that the "Word" is God's proof of the whole creation, because He [the Word] was the beginning of God's creations, and that the "Word" is a God, in the term of what we consider a divinity, but wasn't the creator. He was created. So while you can consider Jesus as a God, he never claimed that he was God, the creator, or the Al-mighty. His purpose on Earth was, as you said, redempt humanity and that they get to really know The Father, who sent Him and to worship The Father, not Jesus. Jesus is a "standard" in behaviour for Christians, but not to be worshiped.

[Immortal Wombat]

Was Jesus a Christian?

[Goingonit]

Originally posted by CyberShy
they are, they are practicing post-Messiah Judaism while the other jews are practicing pre-Messiah Judaism.

BS. After the real Messiah comes, there won't be a need for Judaism because of all the crazy stuff that happens.

None of the jews scriptures that are believed to be inspired by God (Old Testament books) say that Jesus is not the Messiah.
Human beings that didn't want Jesus to be the Messiah teached that he wasn't. But that's not the 'ancient' judaistic religion.

Does that mean that if I say that I am the Messiah, I will be, unless the book of Leviticus has a passage, "and when Goingonit doth say that he is the Messiah, thou shalt not believe him, for he doth pull thine leg"?
After the destruction of the Temple, Judaism ceased to be the religion that it was. This is out of necessity. It is impossible to now practice "ancient" judaism.

His teachings were not contrary the laws of Judaism. His teachings were another interpertation of these laws prophecies than the jews of those days had.

Yes they were.

why cultish ? THey've always been there !
The first christians were 'Jews for Jesus'

Not the same.

The talmut dates from after Jesus.
The talmut has not been a part of Judaism since the early beginning. The Talmut-following jews are following teachers like the Jesus-following jews are. Why does the 'talmut-sect' has the right to be named jews while the 'jesus-sect' hasn't ?
That's like the protestants tell the catholics they aren't christians.

The Talmud is the print version of the oral laws which have been present throughout the hustory of Judaism. They were written down after Jesus, but they existed long before.

It resumed once, with the sacrifision of Jesus himself.

Saying that violates the tradition of Judaism. The last human sacrifice for Jews was the binding of Isaac, in which God sent a pretty clear message against human sacrifice. Jesus got crucified by the Romans, no different than Spartacus.

[Robert]

No, He didn't!

1. Mark 2:1-12--Jesus heals a paralytic. He had authority to forgive sins, which is something only God Himself can do. Then, to authenticate His claim, He demonstrated His power by healing the paralytic.

2. The miracles Jesus performed are a very strong indication of His divinity (because no mere human can work actual miracles by his own power). Jesus referred to the miracles in John 10:24-39 as proof that he was telling the truth. This passage is Christ's own response to the unbelieving Jews' charge of blasphemy (dishonoring God by claiming to be God). Incidentally, this section also includes a beautiful promise that once you are saved/born again/become a Christian, you can never lose your salvation. Verses 28-29 say we will "never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (Here is another strong statement that He is God.) We can have the assurance of eternal security because we didn't earn salvation in the first place; it is a free gift (Ephesians 2:8,9).

3. During Christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,


"I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
"Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
"You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)
These are all ways of saying the same thing, written by different authors.


In John's gospel, he recounts Jesus' interview with Pontius Pilate (John 18:33-37). Pilate wanted to know if He were the King of the Jews. Jesus then talked about how His kingdom was not of this world. Pilate said, "You are a king, then!" Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king..." The truth is, he is King of the whole universe.


4. Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel. The Jewish people, being an agrarian and shepherding society, knew and dearly loved this section of the Old Testament because God was using a metaphor they lived every day. So when Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd," and that whole John passage so clearly parallels the Ezekiel passage, there was no doubt that He was claiming to be God.

5. John 4:25-26. This is where the Samaritan woman, whom Jesus went to meet at the well, gets into a discussion of "living water" with Jesus. He pinpoints her sinful lifestyle (knowledge He would not have had as a mere human passerby), then He admits that He is the long-awaited Messiah: "I who speak to you am He."


6. John 5:1-18. Jesus heals a lame man on the Sabbath, which the unbelieving Jews gave Him a hard time about. His answer was, "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working." It was a well-known Jewish line of thought that, although God rested on the seventh day after Creation week, He continued to "work" in being loving, compassionate, and just, as well as keeping the earth producing, keeping the sun moving, etc. In other words, although the creating had stopped, the maintenance went on--even on the Sabbath, and that was the only "work" allowed on that day. So Jesus is putting Himself on the same level as his Father in working on the Sabbath. And by calling God "My Father" (instead of "Our Father"), He was claiming an intimate relationship with God that far exceeded anyone else's. So in these two ways, He was making Himself equal with God.

7. John 16:28. "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." What Christ is saying here is that he existed along with the Father before being born. He "entered the world" by wrapping Himself in human flesh and being born as a baby. He grew up, fulfilled His mission/ministry, was crucified and raised from the dead (all part of the "mission") and then left the world to go back to the Father in heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of God (the place of honor). He is the only person who ever existed before conception. That Christ was in a "pre-incarnate state" means that He is God.

8. (This is many people's favorite argument for the deity of Christ, including the author's.)

First, turn to Exodus 3, where Moses encounters God in the burning bush. God tells Moses that he is the one He has chosen to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. Moses says to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me 'What is His name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God replies to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God has said that His own name, His personal name, is "I AM."


Now...



a) Turn to John 8:56-58. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)


b) John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins." In your Bible, it may read "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be...." The extra words are supplied by the editors; they're not in the original text. If you're familiar with Exodus 3 you don't need the extra words for it to make grammatical sense. The Lord Jesus is again claiming to be God.

c) John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground." (Again, in your Bible the editors may have supplied "I am [he]" to make it grammatically correct. The Greek just says, "I AM.")
The force of Jesus' claim to be Yahweh (I AM) was so powerful that it literally knocked the arresting officers and the Jewish priests off their feet!

Hum, ok, I think it wasn't correct from me. Sorry

and I'm sorry for naming you a simple-minded one-liner.
Friends again

What could you possibly mean with personalities?!? It's true that God is one person, and Jesus is another, while the Holy Ghost is God's active "force", not a person. God is one, not three.

I think it's hardly explainable. In fact I hardly understand it myself.
It all comes with the fact that God can't be compared with humans. He's completely different.

We christians believe that God:
1. created the universe
2. paid for our sins
3. is with us until the end of time

Since God is independant to time and place, he can do different things at the same time af different places.

The 'part' of God that created the universe is refered to as 'The Father'
The 'part' of God that came down to die for our sins is 'Jesus' (his human name) or 'The Christ' or 'The Messiah'
In Genesis God already promised the Messiah to 'kill the devil'
Of couse unless you believe in Messiah-alike-people like in the Dune books, it doesn't seem very acceptable that one day a human would come and overpower satan. The only 'being' that could overpower satan would be God himself.

We believe God overpowered satan in the person of Jesus Christ, which is God himself.

The 'part' of God that 'is with us' untill the end of time is refered to as 'The Holy Spirit' by us, christians.

because He [the Word] was the beginning of God's creations

not the beginning of God's creations.
He was there in the beginning. period.

and that the "Word" is a God, in the term of what we consider a divinity, but wasn't the creator. He was created.

that's not what the text says, that he was created.
I know that 'word-by-word' the paragraph talks about a devinity, but if you take the entire chapter you can see that the author tries to explain that:

1. the Word was there in the beginning
2. the Word was there before 'creation' started
3. the Word was with God
4. the Word was God.

in 4 steps John comes to the claim that Jesus is God, and He has been there forever.

His purpose on Earth was, as you said, redempt humanity and that they get to really know The Father, who sent Him and to worship The Father, not Jesus

Since The Father and Jesus are one, worshipping The Father is exactly the same as worshipping Jesus.

Was Jesus a Christian?

No, Jesus is Christ.
christians are those who follow Christ.
christians are those who accept the payment Christ did for their sins
Christ had no sins, and needed no savior for that reason. And is, to the letter of the text, no christian.

BS. After the real Messiah comes, there won't be a need for Judaism because of all the crazy stuff that happens.

2nd coming

Does that mean that if I say that I am the Messiah, I will be, unless the book of Leviticus has a passage, "and when Goingonit doth say that he is the Messiah, thou shalt not believe him, for he doth pull thine leg"?

it means that your followers will be jews, but jews of a different sect. (as long as your followers are born-jews of course)
Of course this sect might be dangerous and wrong and evil and all that......

After the destruction of the Temple, Judaism ceased to be the religion that it was. This is out of necessity. It is impossible to now practice "ancient" judaism.

Did Daniel practice 'ancient' judaism ?

Yes they were.

which teachings were contrary the laws of Judaism ?

Not the same.

why not ?

[qoute]The Talmud is the print version of the oral laws which have been present throughout the hustory of Judaism. They were written down after Jesus, but they existed long before[/quote]

who gave these laws ?
If those were God's laws, why didn't he give them to Moses ?
Or did God 'forget' some laws ? And did he remember later to give them to the pharisees ?

None of the prophets voices these laws. Not even the latest ones.
It seems like the Talmut appeared in the period in which there were no religious leaders assigned by God (prophets)
The people started to form their own religion. Which resulted in a ridiculous human 'thou shalt not do anything' relgion which we humans appear to love (orthodost christians, muslims, pharisees)

Saying that violates the tradition of Judaism.

The tradition ?
What part of the bible talks about the tradition of Judaism ?

The last human sacrifice for Jews was the binding of Isaac, in which God sent a pretty clear message against human sacrifice.

the offer of Isaac would've been a waste, since Isaac wasn't spotless, and you know that any offer needs to be a spotless offer. Jesus was the 'spotless lamb' that could be offered for the sins of everybody.

Jesus got crucified by the Romans, no different than Spartacus.

and he got abandoned by God while he didn't deserve that. different than Spartacus.

CS

[Natan]

Originally posted by CyberShy
they are, they are practicing post-Messiah Judaism while the other jews are practicing pre-Messiah Judaism.

Christianity is the belief that salvation comes only from belief in Jesus. Judaism is the belief in the truth of the Torah and Talmud. I'd say the Jews for Jesus are way, way, closer to the former than the latter.

None of the jews scriptures that are believed to be inspired by God (Old Testament books) say that Jesus is not the Messiah.
Human beings that didn't want Jesus to be the Messiah teached that he wasn't. But that's not the 'ancient' judaistic religion.

The Messiah was supposed to bring world peace and to refound the Davidic kingdom; Jesus didn't. A true prophet is not supposed to recommend heresy, but Jesus claimed to be a human and God, which is contrary to the teaching of the OT.

After all it's God who'll decide who's the Messiah, and not the jews themselves.

But the prophecies of Isaiah were not fulfilled.

His teachings were not contrary the laws of Judaism. His teachings were another interpertation of these laws prophecies than the jews of those days had.

The bible, in Deuteronomy, clearly states that the Sages and Priests have the right to interpret these laws, and that whoever opposes the interpretation they decide on is wrong.

Tell me what part of the Old Testament says that Jesus is *NOT* the Messiah......

Mostly Isaiah, also, the passage in the Torah "God is not a man . . ." etc.

In fact christianity is a part of the judaistic religion, according to the christians.

Key words "according to the Christians." These are clearly two separate religions, so why pretend otherwise?

why cultish ? THey've always been there !
The first christians were 'Jews for Jesus'

I object to the term cult in general (since it's just a meaningless pejorative) but they've not "always been there" there was a 1500 year or more gap.
[QUOTE
The talmut dates from after Jesus.
The talmut has not been a part of Judaism since the early beginning. The Talmut-following jews are following teachers like the Jesus-following jews are. Why does the 'talmut-sect' has the right to be named jews while the 'jesus-sect' hasn't ?[/QUOTE]
Firstly, the vital parts of the Talmud were written at the same time or before the Early Christians, and secondly, as I said, deuteronomy clearly gives the sages the right to interpret the law.

why not ?
It's not consistant with the explanations the jews gave to the Old Testament's prophecies. I think it's up to God to decide upon the interpetation of these prophecies.

I think it's up to us to figure out what God decided.

Oh no, the Pharisees had an interpetation of the OT.
Jesus disagreed with that interpetation. He did not disagree with Judaism.

The OT gave the Pharisees the right to interpert.

the prophecies don't talk about his first coming or second coming.

Right, in fact, they don't talk about him at all, because he's not the Messiah.

applies to Jesus.

How? He was neither King nor High Priest.

the 'seperate' part is an interpetation.

Um, the King is supposed to be from the House of David, the High Priest from the House of Aaron, both use patrilineal descent, so how can you be both? Besides, nowhere in the bible do we see a King who is also a priest, rather, they are always separate positions.

false interpetation.
Jesus offer was the 'final sacrifce'
that's what the passage means.

The crucifixtion didn't meet any of the standards for the temple sacrifices and besides, the sacrifices were supposed to be continuous - if the prophets had meant that the Messiah would end the sacrifices, they'd have said so, but they meant that he would start them up again, whcih Jesus didn't.

it's not. All the sacrifise thing was is a sign of the final offer of Jesus.

There's no evidence of that whatsoever.

christians believe God is one as well.
But God has more 'personalities'
Like I'm the friend of my girlfriend, the son of my father and the employee of my boss.

But the bible says that God is not a man.

second coming

So what you're saying is that the evidence that Jesus was the Messiah isn't here yet. Well that's really convincing.

Jesus is an ancessor of David via Mary.
The OT prophecied that Jesus would come forth out of the seed of David. And he did. No excuses like 'Mary is not the father, she's just a woman'.

The ancient Hebrews always traced descent through the father for tribe/clan purposes - see the episode in Numbers with the son of the Egyptian man and the Israelite woman.

it resumed once, with the sacrifision of Jesus himself.

What you mean is that the animal sacrifices in the temple stopped with the completely unrelated death of a man-god in a manner bearing no resemblance to the sacrifices, and this proves that the sacrifices resumed?

[Zealot]

Oh Cyber, Cyber, Cyber! How could you paste things that prove exactly otherwise?

Originally posted by CyberShy
1. Mark 2:1-12--Jesus heals a paralytic. He had authority to forgive sins, which is something only God Himself can do. Then, to authenticate His claim, He demonstrated His power by healing the paralytic.

The Apostles healed also, and that doesn't prove them to be Gods! Jesus had the power provided by His Father!

Originally posted by CyberShy
2. The miracles Jesus performed are a very strong indication of His divinity (because no mere human can work actual miracles by his own power). Jesus referred to the miracles in John 10:24-39 as proof that he was telling the truth. This passage is Christ's own response to the unbelieving Jews' charge of blasphemy (dishonoring God by claiming to be God). Incidentally, this section also includes a beautiful promise that once you are saved/born again/become a Christian, you can never lose your salvation. Verses 28-29 say we will "never perish; no one can snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father's hand. I and the Father are one." (Here is another strong statement that He is God.) We can have the assurance of eternal security because we didn't earn salvation in the first place; it is a free gift (Ephesians 2:8,9).

Jesus keeps gloryfying His Father! When He says that He and the Father are one, it's in the way that they both behave the same way and have the same objectives about humanity!

Originally posted by CyberShy
3. During Christ's trial, the chief priests asked Him point blank, "Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." And He said,


"I am." (Mark 14:60-62)
"Yes, it is as you say." (Matt. 26: 63-65)
"You are right in saying I am." (Luke 22:67-70)
These are all ways of saying the same thing, written by different authors.

This is exactly how you can be sure that Jesus is the Son of God, because he clearly says "I am". He says He's the son, not the Father!

Originally posted by CyberShy
In John's gospel, he recounts Jesus' interview with Pontius Pilate (John 18:33-37). Pilate wanted to know if He were the King of the Jews. Jesus then talked about how His kingdom was not of this world. Pilate said, "You are a king, then!" Jesus answered, "You are right in saying I am a king..." The truth is, he is King of the whole universe.

That's correct, but that doesn't make Him the creator of the universe! Jesus got this reward for paying with his blood as a ransom for humanity's death. And take just for example, the mother-queen of England. She was once the queen, but now the queen is her daughter. My point is that you might not whant to be king forever. And if you read the book of Revelation, you'll notice that Jesus will be king up to 1000 years after the Armaggedon, not forever. After these 1000, the Bible doesn't tell anything beside new scrolls will be open.

Originally posted by CyberShy
4. Jesus says in John 10:11-18 that he is the Good Shepherd. When you read this passage along with Ezekiel 34:1-16, you can see that Jesus was identifying Himself with God, who pronounced Himself Shepherd over Israel. The Jewish people, being an agrarian and shepherding society, knew and dearly loved this section of the Old Testament because God was using a metaphor they lived every day. So when Jesus said, "I am the Good Shepherd," and that whole John passage so clearly parallels the Ezekiel passage, there was no doubt that He was claiming to be God.

Once again, He never claimed to be God, the Almighty-one. He's now King in heaven and will be on Earth, after the Armaggedon. That's when He will be our Shepherd.

Originally posted by CyberShy
5. John 4:25-26. This is where the Samaritan woman, whom Jesus went to meet at the well, gets into a discussion of "living water" with Jesus. He pinpoints her sinful lifestyle (knowledge He would not have had as a mere human passerby), then He admits that He is the long-awaited Messiah: "I who speak to you am He."

Of course, and as you can read in John 1:1-3, Jesus is alive before time has been counted! Read Proverbs 8:22 and beyond. It's a "personized" Wizdom. Actually that's the only place where Jesus talks in the OT. But He did, and I think you will understand clearly that someone helped God, was powerful like a God, but it wasn't the creator of the universe.

Originally posted by CyberShy
6. John 5:1-18. Jesus heals a lame man on the Sabbath, which the unbelieving Jews gave Him a hard time about. His answer was, "My Father is always at His work to this very day, and I too am working." It was a well-known Jewish line of thought that, although God rested on the seventh day after Creation week, He continued to "work" in being loving, compassionate, and just, as well as keeping the earth producing, keeping the sun moving, etc. In other words, although the creating had stopped, the maintenance went on--even on the Sabbath, and that was the only "work" allowed on that day. So Jesus is putting Himself on the same level as his Father in working on the Sabbath. And by calling God "My Father" (instead of "Our Father"), He was claiming an intimate relationship with God that far exceeded anyone else's. So in these two ways, He was making Himself equal with God.

But once again Jesus glorifies His Father! And who better to have an intimate relationship than a father-son relashionship? And about the "My Father" expression, don't forget that he calls those Pharisees' father the Devil!

Originally posted by CyberShy
7. John 16:28. "I came from the Father and entered the world; now I am leaving the world and going back to the Father." What Christ is saying here is that he existed along with the Father before being born.

Exactly what I've been saying! So why do you even consider them to be the same person?

Originally posted by CyberShy
He "entered the world" by wrapping Himself in human flesh and being born as a baby. He grew up, fulfilled His mission/ministry, was crucified and raised from the dead (all part of the "mission") and then left the world to go back to the Father in heaven, where He is now seated at the right hand of God (the place of honor). He is the only person who ever existed before conception. That Christ was in a "pre-incarnate state" means that He is God.

Ok, but I never said he isn't a God! In fact, the book of Isaiah prophesizes that the "Prince" who will "rule" the people of God is Himself a God! But not the creator, ok?

Originally posted by CyberShy
8. (This is many people's favorite argument for the deity of Christ, including the author's.)

First, turn to Exodus 3, where Moses encounters God in the burning bush. God tells Moses that he is the one He has chosen to lead the Israelites out of Egypt. Moses says to God, "Suppose I go to the Israelites and say to them, 'The God of your fathers has sent me to you,' and they ask me 'What is His name?' Then what shall I tell them?" God replies to Moses, "I AM WHO I AM. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM has sent me to you.'" God has said that His own name, His personal name, is "I AM."


Now...



a) Turn to John 8:56-58. Jesus is talking to the unbelieving Jews. "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing My day; he saw it and was glad." "You are not yet 50 years old," they said to Him, "and you have seen Abraham?" "I tell you the truth," Jesus announced, "before Abraham was, I AM!" Jesus was the great I AM from before the beginning of time; He existed before Abraham ever was. He is claiming here to be the I AM of the Old Testament. Verse 59 says the Jews picked up stones to stone Him, but the Lord Jesus slipped away. The reason they wanted to stone Him was because stoning was the death penalty for blasphemy. He was claiming to be Yahweh--Jehovah--Almighty God--I AM. (Of course, it wasn't blasphemy when Christ claimed to be who He truly was!)

This is another clear evidence that both the Father and the son are different beings! Jehovah is the Father, and Jesus is His Son! When in Mathew 6:9 Jesus says: "After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. (KJV), He's clearly gloryfing his Father's name! Not His own! Because they are sepparate persons!

Originally posted by CyberShy
b) John 8:24. "I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I AM, you will indeed die in your sins." In your Bible, it may read "if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be...." The extra words are supplied by the editors; they're not in the original text. If you're familiar with Exodus 3 you don't need the extra words for it to make grammatical sense. The Lord Jesus is again claiming to be God.

c) John 18:4. In the Garden of Gethsemane, Judas and some priests and soldiers are about to take Jesus prisoner. "Jesus, knowing all that was going to happen to Him, went out and asked them, 'Who is it that you want?' 'Jesus of Nazareth,' they replied. 'I AM,' Jesus said. When He said, 'I AM,' they drew back and fell to the ground." (Again, in your Bible the editors may have supplied "I am [he]" to make it grammatically correct. The Greek just says, "I AM.")
The force of Jesus' claim to be Yahweh (I AM) was so powerful that it literally knocked the arresting officers and the Jewish priests off their feet!

No man, how can you say something like this!
The Jews just asked who is Jesus, and Jesus Himself answered the question! How can you make such a mess?
Jesus was powerful, but He never used it to His own glory. And there's no way you can consider Jesus to be Jehovah! You have to understand that Jesus spent His whole life trying to glorify His Father, not Himself, because they are different persons!


and I'm sorry for naming you a simple-minded one-liner.
Friends again

Originally posted by CyberShy
I think it's hardly explainable. In fact I hardly understand it myself.
It all comes with the fact that God can't be compared with humans. He's completely different.

We christians believe that God:
1. created the universe
2. paid for our sins
3. is with us until the end of time

Since God is independant to time and place, he can do different things at the same time af different places.

The 'part' of God that created the universe is refered to as 'The Father'
The 'part' of God that came down to die for our sins is 'Jesus' (his human name) or 'The Christ' or 'The Messiah'
In Genesis God already promised the Messiah to 'kill the devil'
Of couse unless you believe in Messiah-alike-people like in the Dune books, it doesn't seem very acceptable that one day a human would come and overpower satan. The only 'being' that could overpower satan would be God himself.

No Cyber, there are no 'parts'. There are different persons. You have to understand that Satan challenged God's authority for being worshiped by humans, and he rebelled against Him. That's why we are suffering all around the world. Right now Satan is free from doing what he wants to.

Originally posted by CyberShy
We believe God overpowered satan in the person of Jesus Christ, which is God himself.

The 'part' of God that 'is with us' untill the end of time is refered to as 'The Holy Spirit' by us, christians.

Who's we?
And what 'part' of God that 'is with us' untill the end of time are you talking about?

Originally posted by CyberShy
that's not what the text says, that he was created.
I know that 'word-by-word' the paragraph talks about a devinity, but if you take the entire chapter you can see that the author tries to explain that:

1. the Word was there in the beginning
2. the Word was there before 'creation' started
3. the Word was with God
4. the Word was God.

in 4 steps John comes to the claim that Jesus is God, and He has been there forever.

Point 3 says it all. Jesus is a God, but not the God.

Originally posted by CyberShy
Since The Father and Jesus are one, worshipping The Father is exactly the same as worshipping Jesus.

The idea of a Trinity infiltrated Christianism when the pagan tribes from north of the Roman Empire conquered Western Europe. Several religions had that religious concept. But it doesn't apply to the REAL Christianism. God is one being, Jesus is another, and the Holy Spirit is not a being.

[The Mad Monk]

Oh Cyber, Cyber, Cyber! How could you paste things that prove exactly otherwise?

quote:

Originally posted by CyberShy
1. Mark 2:1-12--Jesus heals a paralytic. He had authority to forgive sins, which is something only God Himself can do. Then, to authenticate His claim, He demonstrated His power by healing the paralytic. /quote


The Apostles healed also, and that doesn't prove them to be Gods! Jesus had the power provided by His Father!

You are missing the point. Jesus claimed that he could forgive sins, something only God could do; to prove it, he healed the paralytic as a sign of authority--one that GOD would NOT allow him to provide if he were lying. The Apostles certainly healed as well, as a sign of their authority--which they used to proclaim the truth of Jesus as God.

I have nothing to say against what CyberShy has written here; I agree with all of it.

[chequita guevara]

Here's a question, since the followers of Christ were not present at Jeshua's querstioning by the priests or by Pilot, how do they know what was said? He was never alone with his followers after that, and what he said to the on the cross and after his supposed reserrection were all recorded. So, how did the apostles know what had been said?

[The Mad Monk]

Possible sources: servants, guards, sympathizers within the Sanhedrin itself (there was at least one, it appears). Or, as in modern proceedings, it could all have been written down by a clerk.

edit: come to think of it, the way it finished, the participants may have been bragging about to anyone who would listen.