Historical or political correctness?

[KrazyHorse]

Mornington Crescent

[chequita guevara]

Exactly.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Chris 62
First, a little correction:As MTG pointed out, this is incorrect, but he didn't go far enough.
Nisei also acted as interpreters in the Phillipinnes and on Okinawa.
Every US Navy warship had Blacks aboard as mess boys, full crew members part of the USN, and if the ship was in combat, THEY were in combat.

Yeah, I guess the people who thought blacks did not serve in the Pacific never saw the movie Pearl Harbour... and are they ever lucky.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Okay, everyone knows that the statue is based on the photo--right down to the folds in the flag and the looks on the mens' faces. Everyone knows who those men are. Now, imagine years from now, when these men take their grandchildren to see the statue:

"There it is"

"That statue is of you, Grandpa?"

"Yep, the three of us"

(long pause)

"Grandpa, are you the black one, or the hispanic one?"

So lets say they make the statue look exactly like the photograph.

Now, imagine years from now, a grandchild of one of the black firefighters is shown the statue.

"This is a statute that honours the men, like your grandfather, who died.

"So grandfather was white?"

"Of course not, he was black."

"But everyone in the statue looks white."

Bystander: "That's because all the firefighters who died were white."

Grandchild: "That's not true cause my grandfather was a fireman who died in the attack and he was black."

Bystander: "Look kid, if there were black firefighters who died they would have put up a statue showing black firefighters. They didn't so that proves all the firefighters were white."

[Berzerker]

So lets say they make the statue look exactly like the photograph.

Now, imagine years from now, a grandchild of one of the black firefighters is shown the statue.

"This is a statute that honours the men, like your grandfather, who died."

"So grandfather was a firefighter?"

"Yes".

"Why are the three men white?"

"Because the statue was based on a photograph of 3 firefighters raising the flag, the men were white".

"I see".

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Berzerker


"This is a statute that honours the men, like your grandfather, who died."

"So grandfather was a firefighter?"

"Yes".

"Why are the three men white?"

"Because the statue was based on a photograph of 3 firefighters raising the flag, the men were white".

"I see".

"This is a statute that honours the firefighters, like your grandfather, and it is based on a picture of your grandfather putting up the American flag."

"Is granddad the white guy, the black guy or the hispanic guy?"

"Neither. This statue honours all firefighters, instead of just your granddad and his two friends."

"Why didn't they show just granddad and his friends. They were the ones who put up the flag? It should just be granddad."

"That's a bit selfish. This isn't a statue just for your granddad. It's for all the firefighters who died that day. It is for all the firefighters who risked their lives digging through the rubble. This statue also tells us how we can pick ourselves up and do the work that needs done even after our hearts have been broken. That's what your grandfather did when he put up the flag. Your grandfather was a brave man and so were the other firefighters. They all deserve credit for what they did."

"I see."

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by Tingkai


"This is a statute that honours the firefighters, like your grandfather, and it is based on a picture of your grandfather putting up the American flag."

"Is granddad the white guy, the black guy or the hispanic guy?"

"Neither. This statue honours all firefighters, instead of just your granddad and his two friends."

"Why didn't they show just granddad and his friends. They were the ones who put up the flag? It should just be granddad."

"That's a bit selfish. This isn't a statue just for your granddad. It's for all the firefighters who died that day. It is for all the firefighters who risked their lives digging through the rubble. This statue also tells us how we can pick ourselves up and do the work that needs done even after our hearts have been broken. That's what your grandfather did when he put up the flag. Your grandfather was a brave man and so were the other firefighters. They all deserve credit for what they did."

"I see."

A kid from and Indian FF.

Dad didn't weren't you there on 9-11?

Yes.

Why didn't they put your people on the statue?

Well they did I am the thrid one.

No he is Hispanic.

Ah well...

Well there were only three places available on the photo so I couldn't fit in. *shrugs*

The point: what you are saying is nice and good - but if the message is : "we did it together" than this is a poor way to show it. And it doesn't only show what you are saying, it shows as well what I said before in the thread. In other words this statement is poor and will leave many with sour taste when they see the statue.

[Sikander]

I agree with the sentiment that the more we pay attention to race, the more we retain our racist culture. If they are making a statue which is supposed to reflect an historical moment, then it should be accurate. If they want to make a political statement, then they should have made a statue of several firefighters / police officers who died in the attack, and made it as racially diverse as possible so that no whiners of any major racial group would have a good reason to complain.

[Berzerker]

Tingkai -

"That's a bit selfish"

"Selfish"? Perhaps, but who raised the flag? Who was photographed raising the flag? Who complained because the men who did, and were depicted raising the flag in a statue didn't have the right skin color? Many within the PC crowd who preach about the virtues of a color blind society?

[Chris 62]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Yeah, I guess the people who thought blacks did not serve in the Pacific never saw the movie Pearl Harbour... and are they ever lucky.

Let me guess, you don't know much about the Pacific war either, do you?

I never bothered with this movie, but I understand they built up Dorris Miller, the Black mess boy that grabs a gun and start's blazing away.

For the record, his shipmates felt his heart was in the right place, but he was more of a menace to them then the Japs! (A good source of eyewitnesses to this is Walter Lord's "Day of Infamy", written in the 50s from first hand accounts of the attack.

The PC crowd of that era (much like you now, Tinky) wanted to change history, as the movie makers did, and make it seem he did more, like shooting down several Jap planes, and so, he was awarded a valour medal. (Dorris Miller was fleet boxing champ in the 1930s, and didn't survive WWII ).

The real conversation, for your PC statue, is
"Why did they change the statue from the picture to three different races?"
"Because people back then were so silly, that they felt they had to distort the truth, or minorities wouldn't be happy"
"But isn't that lying?"
"Yes, it is, but to them, anything for the cause, truth means nothing"
"why didn't they just make a statue of three men of different races just standing there, instead of lying about a historical fact?"
"You would have to ask PC people like Tinky, only they could explain their irrational attitude that anyone who doesn't agree with them is automatically racist"
"But that is just plain stupid"
"Yes it is, and they are"

[Imran Siddiqui]

Tingkai: If you aren't the biggest fool here this side of Giancarlo, I don't know who is!

[Stefu]

Realism to scenarios, people! Realism!

"There it is."

"What?"

"The statue. That statue. That statue over there was built to honor the firefighters who died in 9/11 attack."

"What attack?"

"Terrorist attack. Bunch of Arabic terrorists kidnapped some planes and crashed them on World Trade Center. Don't they teach history in edutainment center these days?"

"So... it's a statue. Great. Why am I here, when I could be in home safely connected to virtual reality already?"

"You kids. You kids. You don't care about anything anymore. Just listening to that weird music of yours and being on virtual reality. No spirit. No guts. When I was your age, we didn't have any virtual reality, I tell you. We just had a bunch of personal computers and we were happy with those! These days..."

"Here we go again. *dozes off*"

"...and back then the youth behaved, food was cheaper and everything made sense! The things people do these days! Why, I saw ol' Jack and Kevin Henderson yesterday, and they told me their son was going to marry one of them artificial intelligence tarnations! In my day, that would have been unthinkable! It's hell in a handbasket, son, hell in a handbasket..."

[Natan]

I'm not offended by the statue, although if I were one of the firefighters who raised the flag, I might be. It seems to me that the message sent by changing their ethnicities is "we like you and we like what you did, but we'd like you better if you looked more like us." And I don't think that's a message we should be sending to anyone. I think the best suggestion was made by the letter writer to the New York Times who asked why the men's ethnicities need be made apparent in the statue.

[Ramo]

It's unfortunate that actual faces were used (and mis-represented) for a symbolic statue.

As for Columbus, he was a man of his time, and the people killed were no better then the Spanish you attempt to villify, the Carib indians were CANNIBALS (yes, they ate human flesh), and many Meso-American cultures rountinly practiced human sacrifice, and many other vile things.

That's quite a claim.

The people Columbus mass-murdered were no better than him? I was not aware of the Arawaks in Hispaniola committing genocide at the time (in the most literal sense - complete eradication) or anything morally comparable to such an act.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Ya know what they should have done?

Keep the 3 white guys with their faces, and then add the black, the hispanic, the asian, etc. That way you can have your symbolic deal and keep some of the historicalness of the moment.