70-75% of all Crime is Committed by "Addicts"?

[Berzerker]

Kirnwaffen -

I don't have a problem with those who use drugs, I have a problem with the burden and danger that many users eventually pose to others.

This includes:

- Any medical treatment that is provided at taxpayer expense

Pardon, but did the drug user impose this burden on you or did a politician? Kind of important question if you are going to punish someone, true?

- Auto fatalities/injuries caused by someone who decided they were ok to drive when they were high

According to the stats offered in this thread, all the illegal drugs combined account for a very small amount of traffic fatalities while alcohol is way up there. Of course, the stats don't actually tell us who was at fault, only that alcohol or some other drug was involved. If you are high on pot and go thru an intersection with the green light and get slammed by a sober motorist running a red, the accident is still called "drug-related". But as a co-owner of the public roads - both important distinctions - I would also oppose legalizing driving under the influence of drugs with the exception of speed.

- Families who suffer physically, emotionally, or financially due the drug habit of one or more members

Hurt feelings are not grounds for caging someone. Are you sure this Pandora's Box should be opened? As for physical harm, it shouldn't matter if the attacker is high or not. But I'd love to see stats showing that pot users beat the family more than sober people. Hell, there are many sober people with tempers who could use some pot when they get upset just so they don't beat the family I wish my father used pot instead of alcohol. Financially? No. Stealing? Up to the victim. But it's the high cost of drugs caused by prohibition that might lead to this being a problem for some drug users and their families.

I have a problem with any danger or burden thrust upon others because of an individual's choice to use drugs.

"Danger" is far too vague, too subjective. And the burden was imposed by others so I suggest you deal with them and not hurt the innocent.

Freedom does indeed include the freedom to make wrong choices, but does it include the freedom to make choices that can kill the person next to you? Or increase their insurance premium? Or emotionally scar them for life?

1) "Can"? I've used a wide variety of drugs in my day and never felt the urge to even hurt the person next to me much less kill them. If drugs really caused this kind of behavior, there would be millions of murders/deaths every year.
2) If you smoke tobacco, you get to pay higher premiums. That's how insurance works... Are you now claiming a "right" to dictate who gets to buy or sell insurance and at what rates too?
3) Like I said, hurt feelings doesn't justify putting people in cages, quite an emotionally damaging punishment for some people.

Cigarette companies, as far as I know, have been forbidden from all methods of advertising.

Just television I think, but maybe magazines for youngsters too.

Great, but it is. And while this service continues to be provided, a burden is put on the system by the medical consequences of drugs.

Not by the drugs or the users, but by the politicians. Besides, you're ignoring the burden resulting from the escalation in crime from the black market in drugs caused by prohibition. Besides, it's mainly the OD's from quality control problems that end up in the emergency room, another drug war "success". Only a tiny percentage of users continue for more than a few years with pot having probably the greatest longevity among the illegal drugs. William Burroughs, the author of "Naked Lunch", a life long heroin user, died at 83 years of age. Not bad for a drug that supposedly destroys people...

Yes, most activities can be taken to harmful extremes, but, with the possible exception of gambling, most of the above activities are far more difficult to take to that level than drugs are.

This nation's greatest health problem is obesity with processed sugar leading the diabetes epidemic. And a half million or so people die from alcohol and tobacco related diseases every year. Several thousand deaths due to all illegal drugs and many of those are OD's from a lack of quality control - another result of the drug war. The numbers just don't support your claim.

As long as someone with a job that requires focus to maintain a safe working environment has the professionalism to refrain from working for up to a day in order to fully recover from the effects of marijuana.

It doesn't take a day to "recover" from a joint. Do you have a source for this?

[CB2034]

Hey berzerker..

It doesn't take a day to "recover" from a joint. Do you have a source for this?

Have you ever partaked? If you have then you cant possibly tell me it doesnt take a day to get over it, the entire rest of the day one will be slower and have less energy. Unless you've been smoking some homegrown shake that isnt worth the bag it came in.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Drago Sinio

Would you want the man who builds your house to be sober?

Fat chance of that.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Monk
Rex, libertarian hordes;

......snip.......

That heroine wouldn't be much more used in a libertarian society can't possibly be correct. I think I questioned Berzerker about this before, but I might as well mention it again; if you guys are serious about your ideology, then you'll also allow commercials saying it's cool and hip to snort cocaine or do LSD, and then I think you're underestimated the advertising business if you think they won't boost the sale of drugs significantly, especially those that makes you come back for more.

We see this sort of thing already with massive advertising for beer, much more than when I was a kid. Yet alchohol consumption continues to go down (though beer and wine's market share continues to increase over hard liquor). I'm not too worried about this, but let me also say that we are in a lot less danger with this happening than we are in maintaining the status quo.

Any sort of government formed in this country is going to be a limited one. Whether it's formed with a Libertarian majority or whatever, there are going to be innumerable compromises. I wouldn't worry about the shape of someone's purely idelogical form of government, because they are never going to have it all their way. It's fun to argue everyone's weak points when we throw down over politics, but as a practical matter I don't think we are in any danger of seeing Panama Red ads on Saturday morning.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Wraith
Yes, but at quite a distance. Unless I was doing LSD when my mother called and I, for some reason, decided to answer the phone (and was still capable of it), you'd be very hard pressed to argue that any of my drug use would effect them.

You know, the more Wraith writes, the more I think I'd like to hang out with him.

MMmm, LSD and Serial Experiment: Lain.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by CB2034
Hey berzerker..



Have you ever partaked? If you have then you cant possibly tell me it doesnt take a day to get over it, the entire rest of the day one will be slower and have less energy. Unless you've been smoking some homegrown shake that isnt worth the bag it came in.

Nahhh, wake and bake, take a nap in the afternoon, good to go for the rest of the day. Just don't over do it.

[Sikander]

"Yes, but at quite a distance. Unless I was doing LSD when my mother called and I, for some reason, decided to answer the phone (and was still capable of it), you'd be very hard pressed to argue that any of my drug use would effect them.

You know, the more Wraith writes, the more I think I'd like to hang out with him.

MMmm, LSD and Serial Experiment: Lain."

Colored light bulbs in?

Check.

Door locked?

Check.

Art supplies distributed?

Check.

Music on?

Check.

Beverages stocked?

Check.

Phone unplugged?

D'oh!

[November Adam]

Berzerker... I live in Canada, marijuana is now allowed for medicinal purposes there is a farm being built in an old bunker in Alberta here for the purpose of growing the marijuana.

I think I'm just frustrated by seeing people around me destroy their lives with drugs, and I would like to see away for this to be avoided. What do you propose should be done if drugs where to be made legal? It is very hard to be tolerant of drugs when you see the destruction they cause, and not a single benifit arise.

Well I would be of the opinion that if a government with a socialized health care system (which you say get rid of, but which many people up here are loath to do), were to legalize drugs, then a tax should be put on them to pay for the additional health burden. Ha... like that would happen though, we have a gasoline tax that was supposed to be for road upgrades, and improvements, yet very little of that goes there. (Little rant)

I don't think people who use drugs are bad, but I don't see any good coming out of drugs. What is there purpose? To be mind-altering? Why would you want to alter your mind?

What about ecstasy? What should be done about this wonder drug? Or are you just talking about marijauna?

[Deity Dude]

Originally posted by CB2034
Hey berzerker..



Have you ever partaked? If you have then you cant possibly tell me it doesnt take a day to get over it, the entire rest of the day one will be slower and have less energy. Unless you've been smoking some homegrown shake that isnt worth the bag it came in.

Sorry, I disagree. What alot of people fail to realize when they say things like this is that everyone is different. I don't doubt that you might take a day to get over smoking pot. I've never really heard anyone else say that but that may be how the drug effects you. It takes me about an hour or two. (And that's not due to the quality of the substance)

Can we agree that some people react to things differently then others. Give my mom a half glass of champage and she is mildly drunk. My wife, relatively the same weight, wouldn't feel any effect from 2 or 3.. Some people get acne some dont. Some eat junk food and get fat others don't. We are not all the same.

If my brother smokes pot, (which he hasn't for about 20 years now and only tried it once or twice when he did) he says he gets extremely paranoid and feels like he "is losing his mind". I get a feeling of pleasure and insight. For me it enhances my performance in certain activites - music in particular. Hence my brother doesn't smoke pot and I do. That situation won't change no matter if it is legal or not.

One more little piece of counter-intuitive antecdotal evidence.

My brother has a degree from University of Michigan. Yet he has been unable to hold a steady job, is totally unmotivated and lives with my parents at age 44. Currently he is working for minimum wage in a grocery store. He's the one who doesn't smoke pot.

I was on the executive staff of a major corporation before opening my own business. I have run successfully for over 5 years. I am the one who smokes pot.

Now, I would never say that pot makes you more motivated and will lead to success and if you don't smoke you'll be unmotivated and live with your parents your whole life. BUT I CAN GUARANTEE YOU THAT IF MY SITUATION AND MY BROTHER'S WERE REVERSED THERE WOULD BE ALOT OF PEOPLE BLAMING IT ON MARIJUANA.

[Guynemer]

A couple points re: advertising--

Cigarettes are banned from advertising on TV. But they can still advertise elsewhere.

Advertising towards adults is a myth. It's all to children. 85% of smokers started smoking before they were 18. Most drinkers started before they were 21. Big Tobacco & Big Alcohol know that if someone makes it to legal age without ever trying it, they likely never will because they're intelligent enough at that point to realize the harm those products do. Kids, on the other hand, are generally blissfully ignorant of the health issues involved. If drugs are legalized (and I believe 100% they should be), advertising must be as strict as possible. No TV would be a bare minimum.

As for people starting drug use once legalization goes through--bollocks. I did a massive research paper on Prohibition back in my undergrad years. Alcohol consumption dropped a bit at first, but went rapidly back up to pre-Prohibition levels within a few years, and did not rise any more after Prohibition was repealed. The most striking statistical changes of the Prohibition era? Health plummeted ("bathtub gin"). Crime skyrocketed. We legalize now, we reduce crime, and we improve public health.

[Wraith]

--"Cigarette companies, as far as I know, have been forbidden from all methods of advertising."

Well, I don't ever pay much attention to advertising, but I know that at least before the recent settlement they had magazine ads. Not sure what the terms of the settlements did, but I'm pretty sure there are still cigarette billboards up.

--"And while this service continues to be provided, a burden is put on the system by the medical consequences of drugs."

Well, if libertarians were running things, this would be phased out as well.
However, this again doesn't quite work. As I mentioned before, the health problems associated with obesity seem to be a much larger problem in the US. And while I know some people have actually argued for a War on Fat, I haven't seen it in this thread.

--"most of the above activities are far more difficult to take to that level than drugs are."

But they still can, right? As long as we're arguing about potential abuse, you can't leave them out.

--"Good idea, but I fear that insurance companies would be unlikely to offer plans to users due to the risk involved."

There's always ways to make money on such things. Just look at the number of credit cards or loans that target-advertise to people who are major credit risks.

--"You know, the more Wraith writes, the more I think I'd like to hang out with him."

Bah. You godless anime-loving commies have no business hanging out with us godless anime-loving libies.

--"MMmm, LSD and Serial Experiment: Lain."

Now that would be a trip (have you seen the new boxset, btw? I've got the lunchbox set, but I may e-bay my discs and get the new one just for completion's sake). I can't imagine how someone on LSD would react to the pools of blood that are always showing up in the shadows, or the powerline hum. Not to mention just about everything else going on... We'd have to top it off with a showing of End of Evangelion, maybe start with some Boogiepop Phantom to get the mood going.
Of course, with a viewing schedule like that, who needs LSD?

Hmm... maybe we can get people off heroin by getting them hooked on stuff like St. Tail and I'm Gonna be an Angel. Some of those incredibly cutesy animes have to be a good substitute for methedone.

--"It is very hard to be tolerant of drugs when you see the destruction they cause, and not a single benifit arise."

Well, the thing is, if drugs are that obviously destructive, why do you think people do them? No amount of legislation will ever be able to stop self-destructive behavior. The reasons for the behavior generally have little to do with the chosen means and a lot to do with things that are outside the law's purview.

Wraith
"Society is a cancer of the mind"
-- Serial Experiments: Lain

[chequita guevara]

Throw in a little Perfect Blue?

Friend of mine and I got high and sucked down quite a bit of nitrous "watching" Serial Experiment: Lain. I have no idea what happened in the middle part of the story, just a lot of noise, humming, and images . . . not so different from the rest of the series, but I think I followed a story at the beginning and end.

[Wraith]

Perfect Blue could work. Maybe some Dragon-Half, too. I can just see a room full of high people trying to sing along with the end song.

Now, if you really wanted to go hard-core, try it with an Excel Saga marathon. I'd hate to even consider the combination of even pot and Puni Puni Poemi, much less LSD...

Wraith
"The bullet of justice will always demolish evil."
-- Good Excel (Excel Saga)

[Kirnwaffen]

It doesn't take a day to "recover" from a joint. Do you have a source for this?

Yes I do, but the web address is on another computer. The stat was from a drug rehab center, and was, IIRC, 19-24 hours. I'll post the link tomorrow afternoon if you're still interested.

[Berzerker]

CB2034 -

Have you ever partaked?

Yes.

If you have then you cant possibly tell me it doesnt take a day to get over it

Sure I can, because it didn't take a day, not even hours. Once it wore off, I felt just fine. If we are talking about residuals of the chemicals staying in my system, obviously they didn't up and disappear immediately, but the effect of the drug - the high - didn't linger beyond it wearing off.

the entire rest of the day one will be slower and have less energy. Unless you've been smoking some homegrown shake that isnt worth the bag it came in.

Hmm...this is a bit harder to gauge. If I was tired when I smoked, I would be tired after the effects wore off. If I was energetic when I smoked, I was energetic while under the influence. Now, there are certain kinds of pot that do induce this lethargy you are talking about, like Thai Stick - opiumated pot. I knew some Iranians who were into opium, and while the couple times I tried it with them, it had no noticeable effect, they said it was a relaxing experience they enjoyed after a day's work. But these guys were extremely hard workers and were right back in the rat race so to speak the next day. If what you say is true, the Chinese who broke their backs building the trans-continental RR and the gold mines in California, many of whom were opium users, would have been slackers. The Chinese opium smokers who mined gold wanted their white competitors who were more into hard booze to think the Chinese were at a dis-advantage because of opium; it was a kenard they perpetuated as a tactic to lead their competition to under-estimate them.

Adam -

Berzerker... I live in Canada, marijuana is now allowed for medicinal purposes there is a farm being built in an old bunker in Alberta here for the purpose of growing the marijuana.

Ah, you were talking about Canada and I was talking about the USA. Okay... Btw, I understand Canadian farmers are allowed to grow industrial hemp, is this true? I've heard complaints from northern US farmers that they cannot grow it while their Canadian neighbors just across the border can increase their revenue by ~ 3 times.

I think I'm just frustrated by seeing people around me destroy their lives with drugs, and I would like to see away for this to be avoided.

It's not a pleasnat sight. My friend killed himself with alcohol, but I know his unfortunate end cannot justify hurting others who use alcohol.

What do you propose should be done if drugs where to be made legal? It is very hard to be tolerant of drugs when you see the destruction they cause, and not a single benifit arise.

While I consider freedom and morality to be benefits, other benefits of legalization are still there. We had another drug debate a couple to 3 weeks ago in which our side produced a list of problems created by the drug war. Canadians don't seem to have these problems, at least not to the extent we have them anyway.
I will look for the list and post it here...

Well I would be of the opinion that if a government with a socialized health care system (which you say get rid of, but which many people up here are loath to do), were to legalize drugs, then a tax should be put on them to pay for the additional health burden. Ha... like that would happen though, we have a gasoline tax that was supposed to be for road upgrades, and improvements, yet very little of that goes there. (Little rant)

Hehe, they do that here too. But I have no doubt there would be "sin" taxes on drugs, but when taxes remain relatively low, the incentives for a black market are kept low. I'm not convinced drug use will increase, perhaps at first, but history shows us that "societal" factors - peer pressure - is much more effective at reducing drug use than laws, at least if we are to avoid authoritarianism and a police state.

I don't think people who use drugs are bad, but I don't see any good coming out of drugs. What is there purpose? To be mind-altering? Why would you want to alter your mind?

We all "alter" our minds. You might do it in other ways, watching TV shows you enjoy, playing computer games, etc. If you do these things for "pleasure", you are altering your mind. The fact your brain produces or stimulates the production of chemicals that trigger this pleasure is really no different that consuming chemicals that cause a similar effect. Many people drink alcohol to overcome "shyness" in social gatherings, etc. There are a wide variety of reasons people seek to "alter" their minds and with good reasons. My Dad used Prozac which really helped him with his bi-polar problem. This was altering his mind, but his mind had already been altered by existing chemical imbalances. Many people who have drug "problems" had other problems before using the drugs and that their attempt to "alter" their minds was an attempt to get away from these other problems.

What about ecstasy? What should be done about this wonder drug? Or are you just talking about marijauna?

I was just reading in the recent "Reason" magazine about the origins of "ecstasy" and was not surprised to learn it was a drug developed or introduced for the psychiatric profession and was an effective tool. The drug should have been called "empathy", but "ecstasy" was more marketable when it hit the streets. It, as all other drugs, should be legal. Educating people about the potential hazards of using drugs and in what situations is more effective than turning drugs into "forbidden fruits" and creating massive black markets.

Kirnwaffen -

Yes I do, but the web address is on another computer. The stat was from a drug rehab center, and was, IIRC, 19-24 hours. I'll post the link tomorrow afternoon if you're still interested.

I guess it depends on how we define "effect". If the source is a drug rehab center, you may be talking about chronic users who've used a variety of drugs for extended periods. It hasn't been my experience even though I did smoke quite a bit. But I was under the impression you guys were claiming that marijuana constitutes a hazard - as in being high - for ~24 hours after using. I don't agree, hell, I'm a better driver than most people regardless of any drug I may be on (except alot of alcohol )