12 million Jews in the world

[chequita guevara]

Imran, there is actually a genetic argument to Jews being an actual nation. Among Coheni (etc.. the preistly tribe), who are supposedly the decendents of Aaron, there is an unusally high incidence of a particular set of genes, which is higher in general among Jews than among non-Jews. It's about 30% for Coheni, 6% for Jews, and less for everyone else.

It was using this odd fact that allowed scientists to prove the claim of a Southern African tribe to prove its claim that it was Jewish. Though they look like all the other Africans in the area (through intermarriage), they are decendend from Yemini Jews (discovered through tracing names and origin myths). (They also built Great Zimbabwe, at least according to them.)

So, Jews world-wide have a shared heritage of blood. That doesn't necessarily make them a nation, and nationalism is deeper than that. But, given a shared history, religion, language, and attachment to a particular piece of land, it's no strech of the imagination to call Jews a nation.

We find it difficult to accept because this happens to be an argument of anti-Semites for opressing Jews, that they are a foreign nation. In America, also, our Jews have largely been assimilated, and so we think of them as fellow Americans, as well we should, because they are. I don't think it's impossible for someone to be a member of more than one nation. Dual citizenship comes to mind. Contrary to Hitler's argument, it IS possible to be a German and a Jew, or Irish and American (as opposed to Irish-American), or Greek and American, and so on. Granted, being a member of the American nation is special, since our is a nation of ideals rather than "blood."

David, it is well established that ordinary Germans went along with the Nazi oppression of the Jews. I also included Poland because Poland, more than happily, partipated in the Holocaust. After the war, when the survivors tried to return to their homes, they were run out of Poland (if lucky, killed if not). Today, less than 9,000 Jews live in Poland out of an original population of 3,000,000 (and Poland still has anti-Semitism problems). I would have no qualms about turnig Posnan and Silesia and West Prussia to the Jews in compensation for the crimes done to them.

Eli, I used to be quite the Israeli sympathizer, even up to quoting Begin and Meir and saying that Palestinians don't exist and that there already is a Palestine, it's called Jordan.

Anyways, the reason I don't write about the notion of the Jews having an historical right to Israel because they lived there 2,000 years ago is because I consider that argument ridiculous. Whatever claim the Hebrews had to Palestine ended long ago, when the last generations who knew anyone that had lived in Judea and Samaria died out.

Furthermore, many of the Palestinian people could probably trace their ancestry back to the Cananites and earlier. The Hebrews never completely displaced the inhabitants of Canan, regardless of how many times they left (or were exiled) and came back. The Samaritans still live there (as I'm sure you know) and still practice their variant of Judaism. Just because the regions was eventually conquered by Arab tribesmen doen't mean that it was settled by them and everyone else was expelled. Some settled, some continued on elsewhere (Egypt, Syria, Anatolia, etc.).

Anyways, just as you are decended from people who lived in Judea and Samaria 2,000 years ago, you (specifically) are also decended from Slavic nomads from Central Asia. As a Slav, should you then be able to go and kick the Turkish people living there now from their homes?

[David Floyd]

chegitz-

I would have no qualms about turnig Posnan and Silesia and West Prussia to the Jews in compensation for the crimes done to them.

Fine. And if I lived there, I'd have no qualms starting what would be called a terrorist movement to fight this.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Che, even with that gene, it is only a FEW Jews that have it. If someone converts to the religion, then they are automatically in the 'nation'. That is ludicrous! It is the same derisive snort I give when my parents consider someone part of the Muslim nation (or family) when they convert to the religion. The Hebrews are a nationality, but not the religion of Judaism!

Religions aren't nations!

And oh, almost forgot:

12 million too many!

[Natan]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Imran, there is actually a genetic argument to Jews being an actual nation. Among Coheni (etc.. the preistly tribe), who are supposedly the decendents of Aaron, there is an unusally high incidence of a particular set of genes, which is higher in general among Jews than among non-Jews. It's about 30% for Coheni, 6% for Jews, and less for everyone else.

I thought it was 50% for Cohanim. Anyone have a link?

David, it is well established that ordinary Germans went along with the Nazi oppression of the Jews. I also included Poland because Poland, more than happily, partipated in the Holocaust. After the war, when the survivors tried to return to their homes, they were run out of Poland (if lucky, killed if not). Today, less than 9,000 Jews live in Poland out of an original population of 3,000,000 (and Poland still has anti-Semitism problems). I would have no qualms about turnig Posnan and Silesia and West Prussia to the Jews in compensation for the crimes done to them.

I might add that much of the land in Silesia and Prussia (at least in the countryside) was inhabited by Poles and others who were governed by German Junkers.

Eli, I used to be quite the Israeli sympathizer, even up to quoting Begin and Meir and saying that Palestinians don't exist and that there already is a Palestine, it's called Jordan.

In my view, that was once true because for many decades, the Palestinians considered themselves Syrians. But a new nation has been created, and just being new doesn't make it less a nation than other nations.

*good stuff ommitted because of length*
Anyways, just as you are decended from people who lived in Judea and Samaria 2,000 years ago, you (specifically) are also decended from Slavic nomads from Central Asia. As a Slav, should you then be able to go and kick the Turkish people living there now from their homes?

Agree again, but my guess is Eli has more Semitic than Slavic blood.

Imran: Only a few Jews would be expected to have it; no one would argue that it's a marker for all Jews. And if the Kohanim, who are not as distinct from other Jews as Jews are from non-Jews, have this gene, I think it's an excellent bet that the Jews have it too. As I mentioned somewhere, genetic studies show the close genetic match between Jews and Palestinians. But genes aren't what makes a nation, nor is race and ancestry. It seems obvious to me that ethnicity can in some cases be changed through sincere (or at least permanent) religious conversion; that is why eastern European nationalists wanted to convert Jews and why nationalists in Yugoslavia favor forced conversions as a means of getting rid of "enemy" ethnic groups. The obsession in this thread with separating Jewish ethnic and religious identities into "Hebrew" and "Jewish" is absurd and ludicrous. It's never been one the actual Jews have made. Can't speak for "Hebrews" because they do not exist separate from Jews.

[Eli]

Why should I have slavic blood?

[Imran Siddiqui]

But genes aren't what makes a nation, nor is race and ancestry. It seems obvious to me that ethnicity can in some cases be changed through sincere (or at least permanent) religious conversion;

Actually genes are a significant part of a nation. Ethnicity can't be changed through religious conversion; if you state that, you don't know what ethnicity is. There is such a thing as the Geman nation, the Italian nation, the French nation. There isn't an American nation (realistically), or a Jewish nation, or a Muslim nation.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Eli
Why should I have slavic blood?

Cuz yer a Ruski, ain't ya?

[Natan]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Actually genes are a significant part of a nation.

Depends on the nation.

Ethnicity can't be changed through religious conversion; if you state that, you don't know what ethnicity is.

The Serbs and many others would be very surprised to hear that. If a Serb or Croat converts to Islam, he is no longer a Serb or a Croat but a Slavic ("Bosnian") Muslim. If people consider your nationality to have been changed through the conversion, then in my mind, it has been. Ethnicities are a human construct, and therefore defined by human practice. Your ethnicity is changed when it is changed, not when some academic decides you have jumped through his arbitrary semantic hoops.

There isn't an American nation (realistically)

I disagree. Americans share, for the most part, a language, a certain set of values, and as much as any other nation, a common culture.

or a Jewish nation

Again, I think the links connecting Jews to each other are stronger than the links connecting Germans or Italians to each other.

or a Muslim nation.

The Ummah is not completely analogous to Am Yisrael, as I've said. A Muslim in Iran and a Muslim in Iraq have clearly different nationalities which can be clearly stated as Iranian and Iraqi respectively. By contrast, my ancestors were not of Russian, Romanian, Austrian, or Polish nationality in any signifigant sense.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by David Floyd
chegitz-

Fine. And if I lived there, I'd have no qualms starting what would be called a terrorist movement to fight this.

The area I'm refering to is the parts of Germany that were handed over to Poland by the USSR. Millions of Germans were expelled and Poles moved in from the part of of Poland that became Lithuania, Byelorussia, and Ukraine. Since the whole area would have been under Soviet occupation for fifty years the only terrorism there would have been CIA terrorism, as in the rest of Eastern Europe. Yes, Poles living there would have to move away, but they could move into the homes of the Jews that had been expropriated by the Poles.

Of course, it would have been rather empty since Jews in the West wouldn't want to move to a place under Soviet occupation, there weren't many Jews left in Central and Eastern Europe, and Soviet Jews weren't being persecuted yet. The other major group of Jews that ended up in Israel came from the Arab world, and I doubt they'd want to leave the region, thought the Arab states might just have packed them onto planes and sent them straight to the Jewish Peoples Democratic Republic (cg pulls name out of arse). Which would result in the odd scene of the Ashkenazi moving to the ME and the Sephardim moving to Eastern Europe. Then when Stalin started getting paranoid about the Jews he could have sent all the Soviet Jews there. Instant nation of people who don't want to be there.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Depends on the nation.

Obviously you don't know what nation means.

The Serbs and many others would be very surprised to hear that. If a Serb or Croat converts to Islam, he is no longer a Serb or a Croat but a Slavic ("Bosnian") Muslim.

Let the Serbs be surprised. Not my fault that they are wrong and playing on religious hatreds.

If people consider your nationality to have been changed through the conversion, then in my mind, it has been.

Well your mind has no bearing on the scholarship of what constitutes a nation.

Ethnicities are a human construct, and therefore defined by human practice.

Now you are making things up, right? Ethnicities are determined by genetic traits (doesn't mean that these things should be considered, but they are). Germans are different genetically from Arabs or Serbs in terms of common characteristics.

Again, I think the links connecting Jews to each other are stronger than the links connecting Germans or Italians to each other.

Yes, religious links.. not nation links.

[Alexander's Horse]

The modern nation does not necessarily have anything to do with ethnicity.

In fact defining a "nation" has always been a big problem.

If people follow the Jewish religion they are Jews. If people are of Jewish ancestry they are Jews if they want to be. If they don't then they don't have to be.

In immigrant nations like Australia, being an Australian citizen makes you an Australian.

Only racists like Hitler insisted on a racial determinism for nations.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Horse, political science definitions of nations encompasses ethnicity as a component for a 'nation'.

Nation comes from Old French meaning 'to be born'... hence ethnicity.

[Natan]

Obviously you don't know what nation means.

Obviously, you're engaging in semantics and ignoring what I write.

Let the Serbs be surprised. Not my fault that they are wrong and playing on religious hatreds.

But the hatreds aren't really religious. Slobodan Milosevic and Arkan weren't attending Eastern Orthodox services every Sunday, their Muslim opponents could hold their own in a drinking contest, and the Croats aren't too pious either. Religion here is a distillation of their common customs and identities, not an actual belief system. What the Yugoslav civil war was about was Nationalism, not religious fundamentalism.

Well your mind has no bearing on the scholarship of what constitutes a nation.

Since you're refusing to answer my questions, I suppose I'll never find out what semantics you claim support your argument. But apparently the dictionary has no bearing on this rumored scholarship either.

Now you are making things up, right? Ethnicities are determined by genetic traits (doesn't mean that these things should be considered, but they are).

I disagree vehemently. The dictionary.com definition didn't include genetics in any way, shape, or form, so I'd say that you're the one who's ignoring the technical definition of nation. If your "scholarship" contradicts the accepted dictionary definition of the term, then you really are engaging in semantics here.

Germans are different genetically from Arabs or Serbs in terms of common characteristics.

Israelis and Palestinians have very close genetic ties but are different ethnic groups. Same with Russians and Ukrainians. Serbians and Croats, same deal, and everyone calls Yugoslavia's feuding nations ethnic groups, not religious ones. To give another example, an Englishman descended from Normans is still English, not French. If he is from Yorkshire and is descended from Vikings, he is still English and not Scandanavian.

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Horse, political science definitions of nations encompasses ethnicity as a component for a 'nation'.

Political science does not see ethnicity as an essential ingredient of nationhood.

Ethnicity can be an element of a national definition but it is not/not essential. You can describe the United States as a nation but it is made of many ethnic groups. Same with Canada. Same with Australia and New Zealand.

The reason the 20 th century nation state has failed so often is because it is just so difficult to define what the nation is. Its a very nebulous concept. More trouble that its worth really.

[Imran Siddiqui]

The reason the 20 th century nation state has failed so often is because it is just so difficult to define what the nation is. Its a very nebulous concept. More trouble that its worth really.

Horse, I can agree with that.

I'm just going with was nation was originally described as (where it comes from, etc.). SO I don't consider the United States or Canada, etc., as a 'nation'. I'm not fond of that terminology.

And Natan, one thing (because we don't seem to have much common ground in this debate), the wars in Yugoslavia had a nationalist component (Serbs against Croats) and religious component (Orthadox vs. Muslims). It wasn't just nationalism, but also religious differences and a purifying of the national-religious bond. After all, before Hitler, Jews were a part of the German 'nation'.