12 million Jews in the world

[Berzerker]

Natan -

Berzerker: What you are know saying is that a border change is theft, and I think that's absurd.

Geez, I stated my position twice and did not say a border change was theft. I said a border change was theft IF it resulted in the taking of someone's land - and that is theft.

Also, it's quite clear that the British sided with the Arabs - they helped enforce an embargo on sending arms to Israel but armed (and trained) the Arab legion. The single largest source for Jewish weapons was the former east block (this spurred fears that Israel would go red) although the weapons came from a lot of strange places. Others included:
raids on British convoys weapons bought up in various parts of the world from armies which were junking old equipment weapons smuggled in by what were more or less criminals

But according to chegitz, the Arab legion was not all that active in the war. It seems they were attacked more by the Jews than the other way around. And if the Brits were really pro-Arab, they would have made a sincere effort to help them. It's clear the Brits were walking a tightrope - playing both sides. But the UN resolution granting an Israeli state would not have succeeded without British approval IMO.

chegitz - your posts are examples of why I like the Apolyton OT, instead of going to the library or bookstore, I can get a summary right here Now I can watch you guys go back and forth to learn more of the history of that region. I spend too much time learning ancient mythology than history

[Tingkai]

Going back to the original point of this thread, our image that Jewish people make up a gigantic portion of the world's population simply reflects attitudes towards the Jews.

The mythology that Jews make up a gigantic portion of the world's population simply reflects age-old Christian hated of the Jews.

(I am not saying that all Christians hate Jews, but rather that Christian culture contains a streak of anti-semitism)

That can be seen in the sub-current within the Christian world that the Jews are controlling things. (banks, movies, etc). Which implies that there most be a lot of them if they are in control of things.

If one Jewish person is successful in a business, the person is held as an example that the Jews are in control, or taking over.

Look at one of the quotes from this thread:

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Saying that Jews run Hollywood is not saying the The Jews run Hollywood. Apparently there is a disproportionately large number of Jews among the rulers of Hollywood, like Speilberg and Spelling and others. However, not having done a survey of those running the production studios as well as individual producers, it would be difficult for me to declare that that any of the proceeding is true.

Two directors/producers are Jewish and this is taken as a good indication that Jews run Hollywood. Jews like Lucas, Scorcese [sp?], Coppala, Burton, etc.

CG notes that he doesn't have any proof that Jews run Hollywood, but I bet most of us, jews and non-jews, were willing to accept this as being true.

Anyways, so what if there are only 12 million Jews. There are only six million Scots in Scotland, yet their culture influence on the English-speaking world is far larger than their numbers.

[chequita guevara]

Well, obviously I could have named a lot more. Metro-Golden-Meyer ring a bell. Hollywood's film industry was started by a Jewish immigrant (prior to that, the heart of American film making was Jacksonville, FL ... who knew?).

Nor do I think it's a statistical anomally. Education is very highly prized within Jewish cultures, and like Asian Americans, if a higher proportion of your group is educated you will tended to be overly represented in those professions where education is the key to access and success.

What I find as interesting is the success of that subsection of Jews tends to make the Jewish working class rather invisible. I do know some very rich Jewish folks (dated one, sigh, still love her) but I've also known quite a few Jews who must schlep around for a living like most of the rest of folks.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by David Floyd
I'm really really sorry the Jews were persecuted. Really I am. But it frankly doesn't matter how many were killed by Hitler - they don't deserve their own nation just because of that. It's preposterous. Otherwise, Muslims should have their own nation, as should Christians, as should Buddhists, and any other religious group that has been persecuted.

Most religeous groups do have their own nations. Great Britain, for example, is defined as a Christian state (Church of England). Nepal is Buddist, Iran and Sudan are Islamic republics, and so forth. Furthermore, the fact the European Jewry was persecuted in every country in which they ever lived does seem to necessitate for a Jewish state. Personally I think they should have gotten a chunk of Germany and Poland as payback.

But why stop there? Let's give blacks their own nation, because of slavery.

Black nationalists do argue that. Zionism is Jewish nationalism. The whole idea behind nationalism is to have your own state.

And you can't forget the Native Americans - persecution hundreds of years ago on land they didn't claim to own OBVIOUSLY entitles them to a chunk of the US today.

They do own chunks of the US, and are entitled to more, speficially land illegally confiscated from them, such as the Black Hills.

But then again, Hitler sure persecuted Slavs, maybe there should be a Slavic nation.

There are Slavic nations: Poland, the Czech Republic, Solvakia, Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Bulgaria, the Ukraine, Byelorussia, and Russia.

And just for kicks, let's make a nation for everyone Stalin sent to the gulags. And Spain and Portugal sure weren't very nice to the Indians in South America - maybe everyone who can claim Incan descent should get a brand spanking new Incan nation.

Who do you think the Shining Path are?

If the Jews around the world think they are being persecuted, and need a safe haven or whatever, feel free to leave that nation - unless of course that nation won't let you

And go where? Historically only one country has never persecuted Jews (that had a Jewish population), and that was Ireland (but while Ireland was occupied the Jews of Ireland were persecuted by the English). If twelve million Jews showed up in Ireland tomorrow, I expect that would change. Even the US, while not having an official policy of discriminating against Jews hasn't been tolerant of them. Remember the St. Louis? Islamic countries had brief periods of anti-Jewish discrimination (though it tended to be the exception histoically rather than the rule).

My opposition to Israel is based on the oppression of the Palestinians specifically and an opposition to all captialist states generally. I am opposed to Zionism because I am opposed to nationalism, though I may temporarily side with an oppressed nationalism, since every nation has a right to be free from oppression.

[David Floyd]

Most religeous groups do have their own nations. Great Britain, for example, is defined as a Christian state (Church of England). Nepal is Buddist, Iran and Sudan are Islamic republics, and so forth. Furthermore, the fact the European Jewry was persecuted in every country in which they ever lived does seem to necessitate for a Jewish state. Personally I think they should have gotten a chunk of Germany and Poland as payback.

You're totally missing the point. None of these nations were set up arbitrarily by an international body in order to "protect" a religious group. Great Britain may be a "Christian state", but then again look at the history of the founding of GB. It is nothing like that of Israel. Same for the other nations above.
And you think the Jews should have gotten a chunk of Germany and Poland? That is sickening. First off, the Poles were a subjugated nation, they certainly weren't responsible for the Holocaust. Neither were most Germans, so how are you going to support stealing their land? Even if you are talking about taking the land of only those Germans involved in the Holocaust, that still isn't right because they were simply following orders (regardless of the Nuremburg Trials tragedy, that IS a valid defense) - if they hadn't followed orders what do you think would have happened to the German soldiers? Hmm? Maybe thrown in prison, maybe shot, maybe sent to their deaths on the Eastern Front? Who are YOU to make a moral judgment from them sitting at home at your computer? Who is Israel to make that judgment for Adolf Eichmann?

Black nationalists do argue that. Zionism is Jewish nationalism. The whole idea behind nationalism is to have your own state.

So I assume the people on here supporting a Jewish State also support a black one?

They do own chunks of the US, and are entitled to more, speficially land illegally confiscated from them, such as the Black Hills.

Fine. Maybe, as Berz said, if they can show up with a deed to the land the residents would be inclined to give it up. However, I'd argue that the structures on that land are also private property belonging to the current residents, and giving that private property to the Indians is just as bad as taking the land from the Indians generations ago.

And go where? Historically only one country has never persecuted Jews (that had a Jewish population), and that was Ireland (but while Ireland was occupied the Jews of Ireland were persecuted by the English). If twelve million Jews showed up in Ireland tomorrow, I expect that would change. Even the US, while not having an official policy of discriminating against Jews hasn't been tolerant of them. Remember the St. Louis? Islamic countries had brief periods of anti-Jewish discrimination (though it tended to be the exception histoically rather than the rule).

Sounds like the Jews' problem, not mine.

[Az]

Sounds like the Jews' problem, not mine

now that I know what your stand on the issue is , I will stop following this thread.

[Eli]

Che :
What I meant is that when you wrote your history of what happened here, you was talking from the point of view you happen to agree with, that says that the Arabs who live in Palestine are the natives to this land, and the Jews are foreign invaders.
And I was suggesting you to write the same, but from an other point of view, the one you dont agree with, which says that the Jews are the natives to this land, the Arabs just happened to live here in our absensce and that this doesnt gives them the rights for the land.

[David Floyd]

now that I know what your stand on the issue is , I will stop following this thread.

Fine. Explain how it is my problem, given that I am not affected by it.

[Ted Striker]

Two directors/producers are Jewish and this is taken as a good indication that Jews run Hollywood. Jews like Lucas, Scorcese [sp?], Coppala, Burton, etc.

CG notes that he doesn't have any proof that Jews run Hollywood, but I bet most of us, jews and non-jews, were willing to accept this as being true.

I guess all those guys with the beards and long sideburns and walking around in all black and all those temples everywhere in Hollywood and the entire West Side don't mean anything though.


I thought you lived here in LA, I thought you would have known better.

[Natan]

Berzerker: By that logic, the creation of the US was theft; in fact, the creation of most modern states was theft. The land confiscations from Israeli-Arabs can and should be separated from the creation of the state of Israel; just as the creation of the US should be separated from the seizure of Tory property and the Clinton-Sullivan campaign.
Also, I can't recall if Britain even supporting resolution 181; they simply announced they were withdrawing (as they had from other colonial possesions); certainly British troops were stationed in Egypt throughout the war. And to say that the Arab legion was "not that active" is a mischaracterization of what Chegitz said; since they enabled Jordan to hold more land in Cisjordan than any other Arab state when the dust settled in February, 1949.

David Floyd: You're viewing Israel as essentially an international form of affirmative action, and I think that doesn't make much sense. In my view, the differences between various situations make it possible to develop any universal or even generally useful rules for when a state should be created or destroyed. Israel exists; PLO rule is in my mind a worse alternative.

[David Floyd]

David Floyd: You're viewing Israel as essentially an international form of affirmative action, and I think that doesn't make much sense. In my view, the differences between various situations make it possible to develop any universal or even generally useful rules for when a state should be created or destroyed. Israel exists; PLO rule is in my mind a worse alternative.

Interesting affirmitive action analogy, I haven't thought of it like that until now. I think it's a decent analogy, though - a minority arbitrarily getting something they neither own nor deserve. The analogy ends, though, in that in affirmitive action LOTS of minority groups get stuff they don't own or deserve, and only the straight white males get screwed, while in this scenario only the Jews get land while everyone else gets screwed.

And PLO rule would OF COURSE be worse, in your mind, but what about in the mind of the Palestinians?

[Natan]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Interesting affirmitive action analogy, I haven't thought of it like that until now. I think it's a decent analogy, though - a minority arbitrarily getting something they neither own nor deserve. The analogy ends, though, in that in affirmitive action LOTS of minority groups get stuff they don't own or deserve, and only the straight white males get screwed, while in this scenario only the Jews get land while everyone else gets screwed.

The point is though, it's not. Che made a very good point, and you responded by saying that Israel was founded in a different manner than his other examples, but then your argument falls apart: Israel was not founded on the backs of straight white males, it was founded by Jews working, fighting, living. I'm sure someone will mention the suffering of the Palestinians; but modern Anglican England was built on the suffering of Catholics, modern Arab states on the suffering of Jews, etc. So Israel really isn't different then the numerous other states designed to protect a certain religious or ethnic group.

And PLO rule would OF COURSE be worse, in your mind, but what about in the mind of the Palestinians?

The point is, it would be on the whole worse for everyone.

Ted Striker: I hope you understand that the vast majority of "black hats" (Orthodox Jews in the garb you described) won't step inside a movie theater, let alone participate in the production of the sort of schlock hollywood turns out these days. It's secular (or at least non-Orthodox) Jews like Spielberg who are involved in the movie industry.

[Sirotnikov]

Originally posted by David Floyd
You're totally missing the point. None of these nations were set up arbitrarily by an international body in order to "protect" a religious group.

Your idea of how it was formed is incorrect because of a different perception.

You see judaism as purely a religion.

At the time judaism was seen as a race or an ethnicity, and with a growing national awakening (labeled Zionism from Zion which is Jerusalem) the international community decided to grant jews a right for self definition and self-governing.

To you it's clear that judaism is a religion. To me it's not. To me it's first of all a heritage, a culture, a nation.


Accodring to the now world wide accepted articles made by Woodrow Willson every ethnicity has a right for self declaration and self rule.

On this basis, dozens of smaller ethnicities fight to this date to get their own country to define their culture better.

You simply come and deny it calling it arbitrary.

Great Britain may be a "Christian state", but then again look at the history of the founding of GB. It is nothing like that of Israel. Same for the other nations above.

Great Britain had already existed for brittish. Israel and Judea were destroyed and jews were mostly kicked out.

But according to your arguement here, there's no reason for north ireland to ever become independent. Why do they need their own country just because they have a different religion?

And you think the Jews should have gotten a chunk of Germany and Poland? That is sickening.

Why is that sickening?

First off, the Poles were a subjugated nation, they certainly weren't responsible for the Holocaust.

The government of poland wasn't. Most of the people however, just like most of the people in many european countries were very glad to help.

Blaming the holocaust on Nazis alone, or only the government is sickening. Many civilians happily cooperated. Many cooperated out of fear. And many were much more eager then the germans.

Neither were most Germans, so how are you going to support stealing their land?

Stealing their land? You're either very "uninformed" or incredibly brazen.

Jews had property, houses, art, clothes, money in those countries. It was all confiscated by the Nazis and local governments.

Who ever repaid jews for the property they lost? Who ever repaid them for the houses that still stand there? Who repaid them for money, much of it still in Swiss banks?

Jews were reimbursed some amounts for the holocaust, as if redemption and forgiveness could be bought. But they paid, and I'm glad they did.

Even if you are talking about taking the land of only those Germans involved in the Holocaust, that still isn't right because they were simply following orders (regardless of the Nuremburg Trials tragedy, that IS a valid defense) - if they hadn't followed orders what do you think would have happened to the German soldiers?

What would have happenned if all the german soldiers disobeyed?

Persecution of jews doesn't start and end in the holocaust. It existed long before that. The decision that having a state can wait no longer was a result of growing persecution in the 19th century.

Hmm? Maybe thrown in prison, maybe shot, maybe sent to their deaths on the Eastern Front? Who are YOU to make a moral judgment from them sitting at home at your computer? Who is Israel to make that judgment for Adolf Eichmann?

When a soldier chooses to fulfil a mission he takes responsibility for it. Whether or not he has a choise, he is responsible.

Israel is a very good judge for Adolf Eichmann, because it knows exactly what he did.

So I assume the people on here supporting a Jewish State also support a black one?

If you can prove that black people have the same shared culture and religion and ethnicity, then yes. But this isn't the case since they are as many different cultures as among white people.

If they want to have their own state because they don't have a country of their own - yes. However there are many countries run by blacks for blacks.

Fine. Maybe, as Berz said, if they can show up with a deed to the land the residents would be inclined to give it up. However, I'd argue that the structures on that land are also private property belonging to the current residents, and giving that private property to the Indians is just as bad as taking the land from the Indians generations ago.

Fine, then Israel is the property of it's current residents and giving that to previous residents would be just as bad as taking it away in the first place

Sounds like the Jews' problem, not mine.

Fine.

Then:

blah blah blah, israel illegal, blah blak, opressing palestinians

Sounds like the Pals' problem, not mine.

[Imran Siddiqui]

To you it's clear that judaism is a religion. To me it's not. To me it's first of all a heritage, a culture, a nation.

IT'S A ****ING RELIGION! IT ISN'T A NATION! JESUS ****ING CHRIST (If you hadn't noticed, this is one of the things that makes me angry).

[Sirotnikov]

If the Jews around the world think they are being persecuted, and need a safe haven or whatever, feel free to leave that nation - unless of course that nation won't let you. Sounds like a national sovereignty issue to me, that. But if you CAN leave, why the hell should you get your own nation? Why shouldn't you just immigrate to a nation more friendly to you, sorta like everyone else did who left for persecution reasons? Hell, come to the US!

Woohoo! Great Solution!

You know, it would be really cool if say, Hitler put a few hundred jews on a ship and let them seek refuge in other countries! That would surely work!

Oh, wait, damn. It appears that this indeed happenned. A whole ship packed with Jews was deported. It cruised around the world seeking refuge. And you know what? No one accepted them.

You know what happened then? They came back to Germany. And that experiment lead Hitler to think that the rest of the world doesn't care about the Jews and he can wholeheartedly destroy them.

And you know what? He was right.

And the whole "oh my, holocaust was horrible" line was used by western countries later to justify the war in the people's eyes. If anyone had cared for Jews in reality, they would have done something in time.

IT'S A ****ING RELIGION!

It's a religion... as well as an ethnicity and a culture and a nation associated with the ancient Israel and Judea, though not with modern Israel.