12 million Jews in the world

[Provost Harrison]

If he wasn't an antisemite, he may have used Jewish talent wisely, and could have been the first to develop the atom bomb A scary thought.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Gareth Edmunson


I don't get why Israel is so anal about how many Jews they have. who cares what religion people beleive in as long as they're eating, happy and safe.

If everyone thought that way, there'd be no need for Israel, but people don't think that way and Jews can't rely on that changing any time soon.

I think Israel's policy on allowing people of the Jewish faith to "return" to Israel and get full citizenship is just a little bit backwards and ridiculous. Imagine if some western country did the same thing for Christians. Everyone would be all over them for it. I don't think the holocaust justifies it either.

Actually, Russia, Germany, and Hungary all have laws allowing people of Russian, German, or Magyar ethnicity respectively to immigrate and get full citizenship.

It may be a shame if the number of Jews in the world dwindles down to nothing, but honestly what difference does it make? "Culture" is kind of an outdated concept. Who cares about culture and religion?

I think that statement is absurd, in particular, the last setnence. Most of the world cares about them quite a bit.

As far as I'm concerned, if everyone in the world only wore Old Navy and ate at McDonalds everyday, I wouldn't care as long as they're safe healthy and happy. It would kind of be a shame that all these cultures were gone, but who cares? Cultural diversity is interesting, but by no means necessary.

Trust me, far more people care about ethnicity than agree with you. In fact, I daresay that many millions, if not billions, care more about culture and religion than safety, health, and happiness. That's the reason Jews are still here.

Transcend: As I understand it, both numbers are hotly debated because of semantic disputes and political pressure to inflate or deflate the numbers. In fact, while we're on it, I think the numbers which Assur gave us are too high about 500,000 to one million, since the numbers for eastern europe must include all people with some Jewish ancestry.

Drekkus: A person who converts to Judaism becomes a member of the Jewish people.

Eli: How about a better idea - instead of scrounging the world for dissappearing Jews, why not just become Haredi and have 6-8 kids each? In fact, you can speak the first part if you must, but you won't be as cool.

[Eli]

No problems. I make the kids, you find someone to take care of them. 4 times per week will do?

[Eli]

Good job Natan. Not only that your Hebrew is now understandable, you also made almost no mistakes.

Tov, ani ekabel otan be yamey rishon, shlishi, hamishi ve motsei shabat bein arba le shesh.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Eli
No problems. I make the kids, you find someone to take care of them. 4 times per week will do?

Maayan hahunukh hatorani (o efshar bet sefer ashkenazi kemoha) yishmar hayeladim shelecha shisha paamim bashavua. Sheva be'im ata yishlach otchem labet knesset bashabbat.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Eli
Good job Natan. Not only that your Hebrew is now understandable, you also made almost no mistakes.

It's funny, I don't spend a lot of time studying it, so either:
1) It just grows on me
2) The Israelis on Apolyton are a lot more polite than the average Israeli
3) My new dictionary is really swell

Tov, ani ekabel otan be yamey rishon, shlishi, hamishi ve motsei shabat bein arba le shesh.

Kabel?
Recieve? Entrust?
otan - hayeladim?

[Gareth Edmunson]

Actually, Russia, Germany, and Hungary all have laws allowing people of Russian, German, or Magyar ethnicity respectively to immigrate and get full citizenship.

Which is only slightly less backwards and wrong, but at least its not based on religion. Most modern countries have a policy where if you can prove to be born to first or second generation emigrants from that country, you can acquire full citizenship. In Israel's case, its based on relgion. I could convert to Judaism today and go to Israel and get full citizenship. That like the UK saying all Christians from any country can go there and instantly acquire full citizenship. Backwards, backwards, backwards.

I think that statement is absurd, in particular, the last setnence. Most of the world cares about them quite a bit. [in response to my comment on if Jews dwindled down to nothing, it would be a shame for the sake of history and interest, but it doesn't matter because culture and relgion are irrelevant as long as people are eating and safe]

People are people, it doesn't make any difference where you're from or what gods your parents believe in. Its this sort of backwards attitude that perpetuates anti-semitism and, more broadly, racism in general. No relgion needs a state working to perpetuate it. On the same note, I wouldn't care if every Christian in the world converted to Atheism. It doesn't matter.

If everyone thought that way, there'd be no need for Israel, but people don't think that way and Jews can't rely on that changing any time soon.

There is no need for Israel... as it functions now. If Israel could function like a normal modern state and keep fukking religion and the state seperate, then I'd have no problem with it. This fukking "Law of Return" (which grants any Jew who sets foot on Israeli soil full citizenship automatically) is bullshiiit, backwards and racist. Jews and non-Jews should be allowed the same immigration rights. I don't know how anyone can justify this.

[Gareth Edmunson]

Jews aren't 'followers' of a religion. They are a people.

Actually, Jews are followers of Judaism, just like Catholics are followers of Catholicsm. A jew who doesn't follow Jedaism is a non-practicing Jew. I know what you're saying though, you're reffering the ethnicity of people who descend from inhabitants of the lands currently known as Israel. These people are called "Hebrews". I Hewbrew can be Jewish, and many are, but they aren't neccesarily...a Hewbrew could just as easily be Christian or Muslim.

[Natan]

Which is only slightly less backwards and wrong, but at least its not based on religion.

I'm not sure. I'd be very interested to look into how this is dealt with in the law of these respective countries, but I wonder if a Muslim could immigrate to Russia.

Most modern countries have a policy where if you can prove to be born to first or second generation emigrants from that country, you can acquire full citizenship.

This has nothing to do with the laws in these countries, which are designed to allow people whose ancestors were never citizens of these states admittance on the basis of ethnicity - and I doubt gypsies will be allowed to come back to Hungary through its law of return.

In Israel's case, its based on relgion. I could convert to Judaism today and go to Israel and get full citizenship. That like the UK saying all Christians from any country can go there and instantly acquire full citizenship. Backwards, backwards, backwards.

I don't really see what's wrong in either case. Besides, the only difference between Israel and the other countries with a law of return is that membership in the Jewish people is defined to a great extent by religion without being synonymous with the religion.

People are people, it doesn't make any difference where you're from or what gods your parents believe in.

I beg to differ.

Its this sort of backwards attitude that perpetuates anti-semitism and, more broadly, racism in general. No relgion needs a state working to perpetuate it. On the same note, I wouldn't care if every Christian in the world converted to Atheism. It doesn't matter.

To you, it doesn't, to most of the world's inhabitants, it does. Thank you for your opinion, let's get back to reality. Until everyone thinks like you do, Jews need some protection from those who don't.

There is no need for Israel... as it functions now.

Seeing as millions of Jews had need of Israel as a place of refuge throughout this century, I beg to differ.

If Israel could function like a normal modern state and keep fukking religion and the state seperate, then I'd have no problem with it.

Again, thank you for your opinion. However, the world is not in the business of trying to make sure you have no problem with it. Israelis are happy with their democratically elected government the way it is, no one is being deprived of their life, liberty, or property (unless you're an anarchist who thinks borders are immoral) so what's the big deal?

This fukking "Law of Return" (which grants any Jew who sets foot on Israeli soil full citizenship automatically) is bullshiiit, backwards and racist. Jews and non-Jews should be allowed the same immigration rights. I don't know how anyone can justify this.

Again, how is this different from same laws existing in Germany, Hungary, and Russia? I don't get how you can be so riled up about a country deciding to let in extra immigrants based on this or that policy. Also, how can you attack the policy as racist when you yourself say that anyone who converts to Judaism can immigrate? That is precisely not racist.

Actually, Jews are followers of Judaism, just like Catholics are followers of Catholicsm. A jew who doesn't follow Jedaism is a non-practicing Jew. I know what you're saying though, you're reffering the ethnicity of people who descend from inhabitants of the lands currently known as Israel. These people are called "Hebrews".

No, the ancient hebrew speaking inhabitans of the area are called Hebrews, and the word is sometimes used as a synonym for Jew. Of course Jews exist as an ethnic group as well as a religious one, even though they are defined by their religion. This is not so surprising, Arab's define their ethnicity similarly.

I Hewbrew can be Jewish, and many are, but they aren't neccesarily...a Hewbrew could just as easily be Christian or Muslim.

Perhaps they can be Hewbrew, but not Hebrew.

[Gareth Edmunson]

Originally posted by Natan

I'm not sure. I'd be very interested to look into how this is dealt with in the law of these respective countries, but I wonder if a Muslim could immigrate to Russia.

This has nothing to do with the laws in these countries, which are designed to allow people whose ancestors were never citizens of these states admittance on the basis of ethnicity - and I doubt gypsies will be allowed to come back to Hungary through its law of return.

I don't really see what's wrong in either case. Besides, the only difference between Israel and the other countries with a law of return is that membership in the Jewish people is defined to a great extent by religion without being synonymous with the religion.


I beg to differ.


To you, it doesn't, to most of the world's inhabitants, it does. Thank you for your opinion, let's get back to reality. Until everyone thinks like you do, Jews need some protection from those who don't.


Seeing as millions of Jews had need of Israel as a place of refuge throughout this century, I beg to differ.


Again, thank you for your opinion. However, the world is not in the business of trying to make sure you have no problem with it. Israelis are happy with their democratically elected government the way it is, no one is being deprived of their life, liberty, or property (unless you're an anarchist who thinks borders are immoral) so what's the big deal?

Again, how is this different from same laws existing in Germany, Hungary, and Russia? I don't get how you can be so riled up about a country deciding to let in extra immigrants based on this or that policy. Also, how can you attack the policy as racist when you yourself say that anyone who converts to Judaism can immigrate? That is precisely not racist.


No, the ancient hebrew speaking inhabitans of the area are called Hebrews, and the word is sometimes used as a synonym for Jew. Of course Jews exist as an ethnic group as well as a religious one, even though they are defined by their religion. This is not so surprising, Arab's define their ethnicity similarly.

Perhaps they can be Hewbrew, but not Hebrew.

Ok, fine. All countries with any kind of Law of Return are backwards, but Israel gets me going more because its based on religion. Religion and the state have no business together.

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying though. The State of Israel is showing favouritism towards members of one faith and yet it claims to be modern. What seperates Israel from the taliban or Iran in this respect? Not much... What if the United States starting allowing all Protestants instant citizenship? How would you feel about that?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Dissident

The reason why it seems so "big" a religion is because of the large jewish community in New York City. and much media coverage in the U.S. still revolves around New York City.

Jews also pretty much run Hollywood.

[Natan]

Originally posted by Gareth Edmunson
Ok, fine. All countries with any kind of Law of Return are backwards, but Israel gets me going more because its based on religion. Religion and the state have no business together.

Not necessarily.

You don't seem to understand what I'm saying though. The State of Israel is showing favouritism towards members of one faith and yet it claims to be modern

IIRC, there are parts of Bavaria where a cross hangs in every school room, yet I don't think anyone would deny that Germany is a modern country.

What seperates Israel from the taliban or Iran in this respect? Not much...
What if the United States starting allowing all Protestants instant citizenship? How would you feel about that?

As an American citizen, I support this country's founding ideals, including that in this country the government should not show faavoritism to any religion. However, I am not so arrogant as to demand that every nation also adhere to these principles. After all, England and many other countries have official churches, and I don't think it's a big deal. Also, recall that Jewish identity is both ethnic and religious, in that one can be a Jew ethnically without being an adherent of Judaism, in fact, many if not most of those who entered Israel under the law of return fall into that category.

[Heresson]

hm...

[David Murray]

I think the the real reason that there's only 12 million Jews is because Hitler killed most of them.

After all, when you kill 8 million people, you knock out those 8 million peoples' chances of having children too.

But is it really appropriate to judge any religion on numbers? I think not.

[David Murray]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Jews also pretty much run Hollywood.

Uh oh. This thread is starting to turn nasty.

White hoods and burning crosses, anyone?