So fellow Europeans, how shall we reform Europe?

[Saint Marcus]

I say Mark L should become the leader of Europe.

Wow...I'm honored. Maybe someday

Can't be any worse than Hitler.

Can he?

I'll try to restrain myself

so if there was a single miltary, would the greeks be willing to send their countymen into combat in defense of the falkland islands or to ireland (who is also in the mix)? or would the brits send their troops if turkey made a concerted push on cyprus?

I think that's the purpose of the ERRF. A rapid reaction force to operate on the European sub-continent quickly. But the ERRF won't be used in far-away lands yet, nor will it be the main fighting force in any big war. For now, it's a small force of 60,000 avaliable troops (out of a pool of 280,000), 400 warplanes and 100 warships. It will be used in situations in, say, Yugoslavia, Cyprus and Ireland. And it's quite simple, if Turkey attacks Greece and Greece needs assistance, the other EU nations would help Greece. And despite what diplomats claim, the EDI (European Defense Initiative) is a big threath to NATO.

How it will work in the end is anyone's guess. We won't see until it happends I guess.

Bob Dornans 'left wing characterictistcs' is pure BS. Mostly the effect of his own narrowmindedness than any real knowledge on the subject.

Well, what do you expect?

[reds4ever]

yea, i know about the ERRF, but what if sometime in the future it was sent in to do a job that went against the politcal interests of one it's (major) contributers?

also as soon as (say) swedish troops start dying in any sort of numbers defending (say) spanish territory, the polictal presure to get them out of there will be unbearable for the swedish government

[Saint Marcus]

The European Army will not be used in conflicts because on or two nations want it. It will serve European needs in total, not a collection of individual needs. So if Greece decides to attack Turkey, the European army won't do anything, unless Greece is acting for the global good of Europe, or the world in general.

If defending Spanish territory is in the best interest of Europe or the world in general, I don't think any nation who is in the EDI can just say "no we won't do it" since they all signed the same agreement. And although nations can say in advance if they want to commit troops or not (Ireland for instance won't deliver any forces) and how much of those. Then the European council of ministers will decide if and when the EU army will be used. After that's decided the forces of the individual nations won't have direct say over what the forces will do or not. So if Swedish troops are killed defending Spanish soil, I'm sure the Swedish governement will try to do something about that. But they won't be able to just pull the forces out of the conflict without consent of the European leadership (of which Sweden is a part as well).

I'm sure that nations will refuse to send troops from time to time, but once they commit the troops to the EU army in a particular conflict, they can't just pull out when they please.

At least, this seems to be the way they are heading with the ERRF. Though the ERRF is just the first part of the EDI. After 2003 they will probably start working on the second fase. Nothing concrete is known about that, since no decisions have been made beyond the first fase (ERRF).

[History049]

Kropotkin, you're an insignificant viking slave to commies. You have aboslutely no evidence to back up your statements, all my Hitler comments are true, the gay one is spectulation but the rest are very true. Some, like vegetarian are not necessarilly left wing, but others like gun control and big government are left wing surely.

redjon, a respected german historian recently came out with a book with much evidence.

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Mark L
Well, what do you expect?

I didn't expect anything else. It was just a warning to those easily affected kids out there. It was kind of a 'parental advice'-sticker.


On a bit more serious note about the (original) issue at hand; What about the CAP (Common Agricultural Policy)? As I see it this is the biggest structural problem in a European perspective. It has been all to successful producing mountains of butter (although I guess that's a blessing for Fabien Barthez...).

The CAP takes over 50% of the EU-budget while about 10% goes to industries. With an expansion into central- and eastern Europe in the future this will collapse if there's not radical changes soon. Just look at the farms in Poland (the only country in the east block not collectivized). If I'm correctly informed, agriculture in the countries applying for membership is already getting funds from the Eu to restructure farming.

I understand if the to be members tries to protect their peasants as much as possible while the same goes for those members with a large rural farming population (France amongst others). The abolishing of subsides to agriculture would lead to a huge increase in unemployment. But keeping them would mean keeping a old and non-profit sector alive at a huge cost for both the rich and leading center of Europe ('the blue banana' from London to Milano) as well as keeping the periphery in a permanent backwardness.

It's a real hot potato but isn't it time those money should either be cut with lesser costs for the countries to the EU or used for some serious programs to develop these regions? Instead of keeping the population in the less developed parts of Europe employed through subsiding they should instead get some good incentives and opportunities to develop the industries and service sectors instead. Like a Marshall-plan for the 21th century.

Just my two eurocents (or what the heck they're called)...

[Roland]

The CAP has outlived its purpose for at least 20 years now, but it's bloody difficult to change. Yet while it is 50 % of the EU budget, it is only 0.5 % of GDP.

The agriculture chapters will be the last to be closed in the accession negotiations, and apart from the agenda 2000 ideas it is pretty uncertain what will come out. Phasing CAP out ? I'm on board.

[Kropotkin]

it is only 0.5 % of GDP.

Add to that what the countries themselves are throwing into this on a national level (the latest swedish budget involved a EU membership fee of 23,1 billion SEK while 14,3 billion SEK whent to agriculture) and consider what that number while be after the new countries have joined....

I think they could write off my student loan with that amount of money.