The X-Box is here -- Are you ready? ;)

[Wraith]

--"Funny how Anand didn't post that 'news story' while Tom did. Fancy that."

Anand frequently links to stories on Tom's site. Fancy that.

--"You don't think having doubled the vertex operations doesn't help much?"

Not when there's no memory bandwidth left to feed it. This is why it's only helpful at low resolutions, the bandwidth can handle it.

--"And the resolution isn't an NV2A restriction"

It is an X-Box restriction. There is not enough memory to adequately handle a 720P or 1080i game (note: memory, not memory bandwidth). A couple developers have made 1080i versions of their games, but they only work on the dev kits, which have twice the memory of a standard X-Box.

--"when in reality the number of PCs that are capable of playing the games the Xbox can do are very limited in number. "

Ah, so that's what you were trying to get at. I still disagree. The number of decent gaming machines out there is far larger than the number of X-Boxs.

--"LAN gaming: Many expensive computers networked up in one location (it's always fun finding space to do this, too)."

Dunno about you, but move the coffee table out of the way and there's pleny of room in the living room for a few machines at my place, and that room isn't exactly big.

--"Show me all the parts and links for this wonder-system"

Actually, I just priced one out on Micron's website. Once the nForce and the new ATI motherboards are out, it'll be very easy to do. It really isn't all that hard to build a solid PC for a grand any more.

--"Console and PC gaming are different things, stop trying to say they're the same."

I haven't said they're the same, I'm just saying I don't see any reason to get a console.

Oh, and I did come up with the perfect nickname for you. Bunny Man just wasn't cutting it. I dub thee Bob.

Wraith
Not only do I not care if you smoke, I don't care if you burst into flames and die!

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wraith
Anand frequently links to stories on Tom's site. Fancy that.

But not that ones so horrible wrong like the one we're talking about.

Not when there's no memory bandwidth left to feed it. This is why it's only helpful at low resolutions, the bandwidth can handle it.

The problem with the vertex operation isn't necessarily memory bandwidth. In fact, this is one area where the Xbox shines because the GPU isn't restricted to the 1GB/s AGP 4x gives it (which is becoming a real problem now that vertex operations are being streamed across this bus). The Xbox gives it 6.4GB/s vs 1GB/s on AGP 4x.

It is an X-Box restriction. There is not enough memory to adequately handle a 720P or 1080i game (note: memory, not memory bandwidth). A couple developers have made 1080i versions of their games, but they only work on the dev kits, which have twice the memory of a standard X-Box.

I'll grant you that, I'm really pissed off they didn't put 128MB on the box. Hell, there's 4 additional solder pads for 64MB more memory that aren't being used.

Ah, so that's what you were trying to get at. I still disagree. The number of decent gaming machines out there is far larger than the number of X-Boxs.

Yeah, that's true. But the Xbox is going to sell pretty well over the next few years also.

Dunno about you, but move the coffee table out of the way and there's pleny of room in the living room for a few machines at my place, and that room isn't exactly big.

I don't have nearly enough room for about 4 computers to be hooked up via a LAN. Simply not enough table space. It's still far easier to do console gaming.

I haven't said they're the same, I'm just saying I don't see any reason to get a console.

So what it boils down to is you're not fond of console gaming?
If that's true why are you even here?

Oh, and I did come up with the perfect nickname for you. Bunny Man just wasn't cutting it. I dub thee Bob.

If you want to give me a nickname, fine.
It's you that needs one though, you can't seem to see this from a console gamer's perspective, yet you keep arguing about it like consoles are cheap PCs.

[MasterBob The Elder]

I'd still pay for the PS2 if I had to buy one, it has better games. Besides I only play games online so consoles are pointless.

[Asher]

Originally posted by MasterBob The Elder
I'd still pay for the PS2 if I had to buy one, it has better games. Besides I only play games online so consoles are pointless.

Makes you wonder why consoles don't come with built in broadband.
Wait a second...

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Asher
Makes you wonder why consoles don't come with built in broadband.

I still don't see much of a point for such a feature. If I want to play a multiplayer console game, I'll invite some friends over and actually have some human interaction with them and if you're going to have console gamers and PC gamers playing each other (which is certainly a possibility) the console newbies will be slaughtered.

[Asher]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I still don't see much of a point for such a feature. If I want to play a multiplayer console game, I'll invite some friends over and actually have some human interaction with them and if you're going to have console gamers and PC gamers playing each other (which is certainly a possibility) the console newbies will be slaughtered.

Well, the point is you can add more to the fray. For example, Halo supports 16 players. There's a maximum of 4 players per Xbox/TV set...

So as it is right now, 16 of your friends can play in the exact same Halo game (could be by a LAN thing like Wraith is so fond of, or online). For example, there's an upcoming Management vs. Engineering faculty Halo game on campus here (8 vs 8). Things like that you can't do without ethernet.

And then what about the console gamers with no social lives? What if they wanna play multiplayer and don't have friends?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Asher
For example, there's an upcoming Management vs. Engineering faculty Halo game on campus here (8 vs 8). Things like that you can't do without ethernet.

You could have easily done so if Microsoft had not forced PC development for Halo to be stalled in favor of the X-Box. But that's another topic all together.

And then what about the console gamers with no social lives? What if they wanna play multiplayer and don't have friends?

They have two choices:

1) They can play SP and like it or;

2) They can get a PC.

IIRC, Sega had internat support for the Dreamcast and we can see how well that turned out. Given that reality, the feature will have to prove itself for me to give it the credit you think it deserves.

[Asher]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You could have easily done so if Microsoft had not forced PC development for Halo to be stalled in favor of the X-Box. But that's another topic all together.

What about Amped, DOA3, Project Gotham Racing, etc?

They have two choices:

1) They can play SP and like it or;

2) They can get a PC.

They can't play lots of console games on a PC.

IIRC, Sega had internat support for the Dreamcast and we can see how well that turned out. Given that reality, the feature will have to prove itself for me to give it the credit you think it deserves.

Dreamcast gave it a 56k. That's laggy.

And the Dreamcast on the whole wasn't a big success, so saying that its internet support wasn't great is hardly condemning for all consoles.

I recall the same skeptics saying similar things when PC multiplayer was the 'next big thing'.

[Wraith]

--"In fact, this is one area where the Xbox shines because the GPU isn't restricted to the 1GB/s AGP 4x"

Bah. The 4x AGP hasn't proven itself to be required yet. Benchmark difference between the exact same systems having the AGP slot set to 2x and then 4x show no appreciable difference in results (although there is a noticable difference between 1x and 2x). This bus is hardly (if ever) stressed. Video data is extremely predictable, so pre-fetching data is not a challenge. Where current video cards run into probelm is getting that cached data from onboard memory to the video processor as it needs it, which the X-Box does not improve upon. It's full bus is equivalent to the GeForce 3 Ti200 bus, but the Ti200 doesn't have anything else running across it like the X-Box does.

--"But the Xbox is going to sell pretty well over the next few years also."

Which only makes the install base an incentive to developers in a few years. So for the third and later generation games, this will apply. Right now, it doesn't.

--"So what it boils down to is you're not fond of console gaming?"

As I've stated several times in this thread, I'm not much into gaming right now at all. The only game I've played recently is Civ 3. I'm mostly arguing the technical aspects of things here.

--"yet you keep arguing about it like consoles are cheap PCs."

Well, that's what the X-Box is. It's a low-end UMA PC with a specialty OS and a high-end graphics chip. If you want ease over utility, then it's the way to go, but if you like doing other things than just gaming, it really isn't.

--"They can't play lots of console games on a PC"

That's what emulators are for

Wraith
Member of the Vogon Poetry Forum

[Asher]

Originally posted by Wraith
Bah. The 4x AGP hasn't proven itself to be required yet. Benchmark difference between the exact same systems having the AGP slot set to 2x and then 4x show no appreciable difference in results (although there is a noticable difference between 1x and 2x). This bus is hardly (if ever) stressed. Video data is extremely predictable, so pre-fetching data is not a challenge. Where current video cards run into probelm is getting that cached data from onboard memory to the video processor as it needs it, which the X-Box does not improve upon. It's full bus is equivalent to the GeForce 3 Ti200 bus, but the Ti200 doesn't have anything else running across it like the X-Box does.

That used to be the case.
Then T&L entered the picture, and more bandwidth was saturated...
And now doing all of the vertex and pixel shading operations on the GF3/GF4(?) chips are sucking tons of bandwidth up. The graphics chip is now programmable, so it's being fed with data and instructions and needs to send those fast.
That's why Intel is fasttracking AGP 8x to try to help.

Which only makes the install base an incentive to developers in a few years. So for the third and later generation games, this will apply. Right now, it doesn't.

Or for games in development right now, so when they're released they have lots of places to go. (I'm thinking of Malice and Project Ego in particular)

As I've stated several times in this thread, I'm not much into gaming right now at all. The only game I've played recently is Civ 3. I'm mostly arguing the technical aspects of things here.

Technically the Xbox is the most powerful console. All other points are moot.

Well, that's what the X-Box is. It's a low-end UMA PC with a specialty OS and a high-end graphics chip. If you want ease over utility, then it's the way to go, but if you like doing other things than just gaming, it really isn't.

What defines being a PC? Running an assorted array of programs? Xbox doesn't do that.
What else defines a PC? Upgradability? Can't find that in the Xbox.
How about the ability to install programs? Nope, not in the Xbox.
How about a PCI bus? Nope, not there.
AGP? Nope.
Keyboard? Nope.
Mouse? Nope.

You can't seem to get past the surface of it, the fact that it uses specialized PC parts to become a console. And as I've kept stating, by that logic, the Gamecube is also a Mac.

That's what emulators are for

Show me some PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox emulators.

[Wraith]

--"Then T&L entered the picture, and more bandwidth was saturated..."

Actually, the tests I saw were done with a GeForce 2.
And yes, the newer cards are sucking up more bandwidth, but it's primarily local memory bandwidth, not the AGP bandwidth.

--"What defines being a PC?"

Well, le't see here. The X-Box has a hard drive, so if it can't run an array of programs it's only because Microsoft isn't licensing it for anything but games. Artificial limitation.

It certainly is upgradable, just not greatly. Hard-drive and DVD drive use standard IDE, so they're replaceable. Only caveat is getting a hold of the X-Box proprietary file system, another arbitrary limitation, and one that'll be reverse engineered sooner or later.

Install programs is handled above. I must say, however, that if they don't do any installs then the hard-drive is just a huge memory card. Where else are the demos going to go and be run from?

PCI and AGP are just internal bus architectures. Not really required except for expansion, and some of the micro-ATX boards are already pushing these down anyway. With the integrated NIC, sound, video and USB PCI and AGP are secondary concerns. Limits the upgradeability, but not much different from most integrated solutions.

Keyboard and mouse could be easily added, since the X-Box controllers are using USB.

So, what we have here, are mostly general-purpose PC parts in a box with a proprietary OS on them. As long as you can either boot from the existing DVD drive or add a CD drive to boot from you could install any PC OS on it. Only touchy spot might be the drivers for the integrated stuff, but nVidia's integrated drivers would probably take care of that (wouldn't get full use of the video as it most likely wouldn't use the other vertex pipe, but that'd be it).
(Which reminds me, rumor has it that the NV25 will indeed have the second vertex pipeline, as well as faster RAM.)

So, yes. Seems like a PC to me. Dreamcast doesn't have a hard-drive, so it can't really have programs installed on it. If they had one wired up through standard IDE or SCSI controllers, then yes, I would probably call it a computer.

--"Show me some PS2, Gamecube, and Xbox emulators"

Give them time

Wraith
Witches use brooms because nature abhors a vacuum