Will there ever be a decent alternative to Windows?

[SpencerH]

IIRC it wasnt mac os ported to the PC, it was a seperate OS that incorporated mac os usability. At that time (1997), I was still a mac user and IMO the mac os was way better than win95. The reviews of that OS suggested it would have been competitive with win98 but Apple blew it. Jobs returned, Apple got $500M from Gates, and the OS never surfaced. Now that we have winXP I cant see anyone else providing any serious competition in the OS market.

[Agathon]

Apple seriously needs to expand its costumer base any way it can since they can't keep riding the Ipod forever.

They don't need to. They are still a viable business without the ipod.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Agathon

I doubt even the mighty Asher would have fixed that without a reinstall.

The mighty Asher who can't even get Linux to work properly?

Y'know, I'm experiencing this total lack of faith that Linux could have a) prevented my HD from crashing, b) allowed the problem to be solved without a reinstall.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Agathon

Apple seriously needs to expand its costumer base any way it can since they can't keep riding the Ipod forever.

They don't need to. They are still a viable business without the ipod.

I still don't understand why Apple suddenly took back all the licenses it had given out to other companies for making Mac hardware.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger
I still don't understand why Apple suddenly took back all the licenses it had given out to other companies for making Mac hardware.

Because they don't have a viable business without a monopoly on their cult-base.

[Agathon]

I still don't understand why Apple suddenly took back all the licenses it had given out to other companies for making Mac hardware.

Because it wasn't making them any money.

Because they don't have a viable business without a monopoly on their cult-base.

No... they did it just to annoy you.. cretin.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Agathon

I still don't understand why Apple suddenly took back all the licenses it had given out to other companies for making Mac hardware.

Because it wasn't making them any money.

Maybe, even though I suspect the licenses cost money. The thing is that was the chance they had to increase market share, and to become a company more based on ideas instead of making things.

[Agathon]

Maybe, even though I suspect the licenses cost money. The thing is that was the chance they had to increase market share, and to become a company more based on ideas instead of making things.

It wasn't enough. Apple has never been a software company, even though it is best known for its software.

The mac clones, among other things, were causing Apple to haemorrhage money, and the clone makers didn't really add value to the Macintosh brand and caused Apple other problems.

Although people often claim that Apple should have licensed the Mac OS in the 80s, it wasn't really feasible technically or financially. The original mac was expensive and technically far in advance of the PC DOS machines it was competing with. People didn't want to pay that much for a computer, unless they were doing something that required the GUI.

There's a good article on this subject here:

http://daringfireball.net/2004/08/parlay

IBM wanted to licence NEXTStep in the late 80s, which was far superior to Windows at the time, but Jobs dicked them around and it probably wouldn't have taken off anyway. People used DOS because everyone else did - that made up for its suckfullness.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Agathon
It wasn't enough. Apple has never been a software company, even though it is best known for its software.

If they never has been, they should have been. They could have made a whole bundle doing that in the '80s, or even in the '90s.

Originally posted by Agathon
The original mac was expensive and technically far in advance of the PC DOS machines it was competing with.

Not that more technially advanced. The Skinny Mac was based on the 68000 IIRC, which is a bit better than the 8086, but by then the 286 was out, and it's as powerful as the 68000, if not more so.

The real problem I see is the aspect ratio.

Originally posted by Agathon
People used DOS because everyone else did - that made up for its suckfullness.

The original MacOS wasn't that much better. MS-DOS was a glorified program launcher, the MacOS was a glorified program launcher with a GUI.

[Agathon]

If they never has been, they should have been. They could have made a whole bundle doing that in the '80s, or even in the '90s.

The article I linked to explains why that was extremely unlikely. They probably would have gone out of business had they tried.

Not that more technially advanced. The Skinny Mac was based on the 68000 IIRC, which is a bit better than the 8086, but by then the 286 was out, and it's as powerful as the 68000, if not more so.

That's quite a while after 1984. Again, I doubt Apple would have made much headway - most people needed DOS compatibility by then. The Mac OS was so tied in to the hardware for the first few years of the Mac's existence, that porting it wouldn't have been feasible.

The original MacOS wasn't that much better. MS-DOS was a glorified program launcher, the MacOS was a glorified program launcher with a GUI.

It was infinitely better. I don't know if you were a computer user during the early 80s. Most schools used the Apple II, which was a pretty simple computer to use, but turned off a lot of people who found it intimidating.

At my high school we had a room full of Apple IIs which were almost universally used by guys - specifically guys who could be bothered to spend a while learning how to use it and who could remember how everything worked and which commands did what. Everyone else avoided them like the plague. All computers were like this: I had a couple of Sinclair machines and some friends had these or Commodore's stuff.

Then a Mac turned up. There were fights over who got to use it for the simple reason that anyone could learn how to use it in about 2 minutes and could get wonderful results with very little effort. From the point of view of the average person regular computers were mysterious entities that you had to learn a new language to use, the Mac required none of that. More to the point women liked using it (you can usually tell if it's easy to use if women like it - they won't put up with the crap that men do).

I remember typing an essay on an old DOS machine in the late 80s. What a joke. You had to remember all sorts of tasks assigned to the function keys and you couldn't see what you were getting. With the mac you did it all graphically and it was super easy.

Windows didn't get anywhere near this until Windows 3.1 (which I thought was OK - I had a 386 when I was an undergrad). But it still sucked. From memory it didn't even have a proper desktop and drag and drop didn't really work.

What's funny is that I remember PC vs Mac debates from the late 80s. PC users would complain that the GUI was a "toy" and that "real computer users" should learn the command line and put up with DOS. Of course when Windows finally became useable they changed their tune - but that gives you some idea of the stupidity of PC users in those days.

[Agathon]

Don't think I am defending Apple management from 1985-1996. It's a testament to the quality of the mac platform that even those cretins couldn't put Apple out of business, despite trying really hard.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Agathon
It's a testament to the quality of the mac platform that even those cretins couldn't put Apple out of business, despite trying really hard.

It's a testament to how blindly loyal their followers are. They bought Apple products when they were undeniably crap, go figure that once Apple puts out some mediocre one they think they're the best thing, ever...

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Agathon
That's quite a while after 1984.

The IBM AT came out in 1984. which was based on the i286.

Originally posted by Agathon
The Mac OS was so tied in to the hardware for the first few years of the Mac's existence, that porting it wouldn't have been feasible.

That might be true.

Originally posted by Agathon
It was infinitely better. I don't know if you were a computer user during the early 80s.

The first "computer" I used was a remote terminal to a mainframe with an optical card* reader and a line printer. However I soon moved up to a TRS-80 Model I Level II with Expansion Interface. Fear the power!

Originally posted by Agathon
At my high school we had a room full of Apple IIs which were almost universally used by guys - specifically guys who could be bothered to spend a while learning how to use it and who could remember how everything worked and which commands did what.

RTFM I couldn't remember using a command prompt was that hard. It only took about an hour to get used to the basic operations. Of course deep secrets such as memory management would take years.

Originally posted by Agathon
I remember typing an essay on an old DOS machine in the late 80s. What a joke. You had to remember all sorts of tasks assigned to the function keys and you couldn't see what you were getting.

You sure? Even Microsoft Word had a menu at the bottom you could access.

Originally posted by Agathon
Windows didn't get anywhere near this until Windows 3.1 (which I thought was OK - I had a 386 when I was an undergrad). But it still sucked. From memory it didn't even have a proper desktop and drag and drop didn't really work.

Well yes. Windows 3.1 sucked - but it was also the version of Windows I had most fun with, playing with the colour schemes and all that. Ah, the nostalgia of being young and geeky

[Agathon]

The IBM AT came out in 1984. which was based on the i286.

Weren't you referring to a later model of mac? I thought you meant one of the pizza box ones.

The original Mac OS was heavily hardware dependent. Read the article I linked to.

The first "computer" I used was a remote terminal to a mainframe with an optical card* reader and a line printer. However I soon moved up to a TRS-80 Model I Level II with Expansion Interface. Fear the power!

TRS 80

Remember "Time Bandit"? That was a pretty cool game.

I couldn't remember using a command prompt was that hard. It only took about an hour to get used to the basic operations. Of course deep secrets such as memory management would take years.

Point and click was somewhat easier.

You sure? Even Microsoft Word had a menu at the bottom you could access.

I wasn't using that. It was some other piece of ****.

Well yes. Windows 3.1 sucked - but it was also the version of Windows I had most fun with, playing with the colour schemes and all that. Ah, the nostalgia of being young and geeky

Remember "Hot Dog"?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Agathon
Weren't you referring to a later model of mac? I thought you meant one of the pizza box ones.

Nope. The Skinny Mac is the original. It was a beige all-in-one box, with a floppy slot, a small monochrome monitor, and 64K RAM (or was it 128K)? I forgot.

Originally posted by Agathon
Remember "Time Bandit"? That was a pretty cool game.

All those games were cool. It must be my memory messing me up

Originally posted by Agathon
Point and click was somewhat easier.

That's true to a large extent. I remember spending hours playing with MacPaint.

Originally posted by Agathon
Remember "Hot Dog"?

Hot Dog was cool. I am not sure if we are talking about the same thing, though