Jane Roe to ask Supremes to vacate Roe v. Wade

[Berzerker]

Oh yeah, since Oerdin thinks I'm an ignorant bastard, maybe you can inform him that babies in the womb are alive.

Tuber

Risk death during abortion? If you make abortion illegal women wil;l still get the abortions, they just wont be getting them in a safe sterile enviromentby a certified doctor.
Instead they will get them illegally in unsafe conditions which in all likelyhood will increase the number of women deaths due to abortions.

That is an argument about the practicality of legal and illegal abortion, not what it means to "own" your self.
Oerdin said we dont own ourselves when it comes to drugs because some people out there use drugs and hurt "society". Assuming this "harm" includes deaths and injuries, why does abortion qualify as a right and drugs dont. Thats inconsistent and I get tired of many "pro-choicers" demanding I respect their "right" to abortion while they put millions of people in jail for drug use. The stench of their hypocrisy would repel starving vultures...

[David Floyd]

Bk, where are you???

[Mrs. Tuberski]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Mrs Tuberski

Where did I post odds?

Okay odds was the wrong term, you said:

Btw, many women die or are severly injured in botched abortions, so according to your argument, abortion should also be banned.

How many is many women?

You dont know who I vote for, but then abortion should be banned and women can have abortions as long as they dont get caught, right? Apply the same standard to this "right" to own one's body?

I never claimed to know who you voted for, perhaps I should have added that I do not, nor have I, ever voted. Which again, is my choice. Therefore, I have no say in which drugs are legal or illegal

Then according to Oerdin we shouldn't have the right to pay someone to remove our tonsils. Oh, Oerdin says women who have abortions in "real" clinics do just fine. You might want to ask him about that.

Wouldn't that be your choice as to wether you paid them to do it or not?

Who said we should have a right to crash our cars into your family?

I never said you have the right to crash your car into my family, I said if you did and you are stoned you deserve to be punished.

btw, marijauna is not illegal in all cases. unfortunately you have to have cancer to smoke it in california. those people voted for people that agreed with medicinal marijuana.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Coming from someone who knows nothing about what it's like to give birth to a child. IMO, men should not even have a say in the matter of abortion.

YAY! More ignorance from Sava! Civilians know nothing about what it's like in battle, so civilians shouldn't have a say over warfare! Poor people know nothing about capital gains taxes and thus shouldn't have a say on that!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski

how bout the lousy sob forced me to have sex.
The MF left me pregnant and alone with no way to care for my self or this childand plans to have nothing to do with the child
or I was brutally gang raped wouldnt those be qualifing reasons

I do indeed think they would be.

I was of course being sarcastic- the way abortion is routinely portrayed by some people is that the woman is simply filling in time between a beauty salon appointment and a bridge tournament.


I seem to recall His Crassness the Pope urging Bosnian and Croat victims of war rapes to just carry on and bear the foetus to full term. After all, they were only raped, for goodness' sake, what's nine months' reminder of recent brutality in the larger scale of human suffering?

[Berzerker]

Mrs Tuber

How many is many women?

Now you want to debate what "many" means? I don't.

I never claimed to know who you voted
for

Then I'll quote you:

I say again the people who made those laws are people you voted for.

You said I voted for the people who made the drug laws.

Wouldn't that be your choice as to wether you paid them to do it or not?

Not if we apply Oerdin's definition of ownership, he says we dont own ourselves if that ownership results in harm - being killed by a doctor trying to remove your tonsils constitutes harm.

I never said you have the right to crash your car into my family, I said if you did and you are stoned you deserve to be punished.

If no one said we have that right, why did you bring it up? Its irrelevant...except for the fact virtually all drug prohibitionists cite traffic fatalities as an excuse to punish people who use drugs regardless of whether or not they caused a traffic fatality.

btw, marijauna is not illegal in all cases. unfortunately you have to have cancer to smoke it in california. those people voted for people that agreed with medicinal marijuana.

Tell that to the Feds, they don't recognise California's laws. Btw, it ain't a right if you need permission, it becomes a privilege bestowed by others.

[beingofone]

A PERSPECTIVE

David Floyd

The question is whether or not the fetus's "right to life" supercedes all other rights of the mother - that is, the mother is legally obligated to give birth, whether she wants to or not, regardless of the situation.

Accepting a hierarchy of rights is going to leave you with limited individual liberty if you take it to the logical conclusion.

Oerdin

And there's always the fact that fetuses under a certain age aren't alive at all

In 1848 the United States Supreme Court in the Dred Scott Act ruled that a black man was not a human being.
Do you agree with this ruling?

Ah maybe the Supreme Court can be wrong. Who is the one who decides what is morally right and wrong?

So according to the logic that has been posted.

How dare persons of "another" color stifle my right to own them. If I accept a " hierarchy of rights" my right to own slaves will be infringed.
And there`s always the fact that they aren`t really alive and have souls like ordinary people.


David Floyd

Now hold on a second - you aren't "killing your child", you are simply deciding that the fetus/child can no longer use your body. Let's look at it this way - if you agree to allow your body to be hooked up to a machine in order to sustain someone's else's life, does it become murder if you change your mind and take yourself off the machine?

Obviously, it does not - that person doesn't have a moral claim to your body. His right to life is irrelevant - it's not a factor because you are not violating it.

So I should think like this?

You are breathing air that I could be using. You are eating food and drinking water that my body needs. In fact you are taking up way to much space, so you have to go away.
Especially if you threaten my job position because you will be taking away my right to sustain my family and my body etc.

David Floyd

Childbirth still CAN be more dangerous to the mother than abortion.

That is why we did away with childbirth thousands of years ago. It was much to dangerous to propagate human life.

David Floyd

As an "unborn child", I don't even know what the hell we're talking about. Even as a 3 year old, I have no concept of death - you are projecting adult ideas and reactions onto a being that has no capacity for those ideas and reactions.

Ok let me ask all you full grown "adults" out there somewhere.
Does your life have meaning? I mean do you have hopes, dreams ambitions? Do you have value?
Then would it have been OK if your mother had aborted you?
If the answer is yes then just simply drop your head below water and take a deep breath.

Urban Ranger

There should be a choice in deciding whether or not to have a baby.

Sava

Coming from someone who knows nothing about what it's like to give birth to a child. IMO, men should not even have a say in the matter of abortion.

There should be a choice. The only two children I would have had in this world were aborted and without my consent. I have no children now. They are gone.

I saw what the abortions did to the mental health of this woman. So don`t tell me there is " no danger" in abortions. It leaves women and men emotionally void and at times crippled.

This world has made the most precious of all gifts, LIFE cheap and disposable.

[Boris Godunov]

Re: A PERSPECTIVE

Originally posted by beingofone
I saw what the abortions did to the mental health of this woman. So don`t tell me there is " no danger" in abortions. It leaves women and men emotionally void and at times crippled.

Strawman. Nobody asserted there was "no danger" in abortions. Why are you using quotation marks for something nobody said?

Of course there is danger and potential adverse effects from aborion--there are such risks with ANY medical procedure. There is a danger even from getting an ingrown toenail removed.

The argument that abortion can be physically or psychologically harmful is a fruitless one, because in the end, so can carrying a fetus to term and delivering it. We have scads of documented effects of adverse health effects from pregnancies, up to death and psychosis. How many women have died in childbirth as opposed to those who have died on abortion clinic tables? Need I mention Andrea Yates to demonstrate how giving birth can lead to psychological trauma?

So citing the adverse health potential of abortions as an argument against it is a flawed argument, since one can easily show how delivering a baby can be just as potentially harmful.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Mrs. Tuberski
how bout the lousy sob forced me to have sex.

I believe you missed the sarcasm inherent in any molly bloom post.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Coming from someone who knows nothing about what it's like to give birth to a child. IMO, men should not even have a say in the matter of abortion.

YAY! More ignorance from Sava! Civilians know nothing about what it's like in battle, so civilians shouldn't have a say over warfare! Poor people know nothing about capital gains taxes and thus shouldn't have a say on that!

Nothing stops you from gaining first hand experience in battles, Irman. However you can't bear a baby, no matter how you try.

[Boris Godunov]

Re: A PERSPECTIVE

Originally posted by beingofone
There should be a choice. The only two children I would have had in this world were aborted and without my consent. I have no children now. They are gone.

I'm sorry for your anguish over this. But think about the alternative: you coercing a woman who didn't want to carry the fetuses into doing so against her will. How is that right? Were you going to take full responsibility for the kids when born? If the woman happened to die or be seriously crippled as a result of childbirth, could we have made you accept responsibililty for her death?

You could find another woman who was willing to have children and sire much progeny with her. If you want children that badly, why not do this? And that doesn't involve you forcing someone to carry fetuses to term against their will.

[chequita guevara]

Re: A PERSPECTIVE

Originally posted by beingofone
I saw what the abortions did to the mental health of this woman. So don`t tell me there is " no danger" in abortions. It leaves women and men emotionally void and at times crippled.

If a huge segment of society (including major politicians and your faith) told you that eating meat was a sin, made you a horrible person, was murder, etc. and then you went and ate some meat, and afterwards felt horrible about it, it is the act of eating meat that caused you to have problems, or societal opprobrium.

People like you create a hostile environment, then claim the effects of your actions justify your actions. If people like you didn't call abortion murder, didn't make women feel like murderers for having them, etc., there would be no mental health problem's associated with abortion.

Also, you completely ignore the mental health problems with becoming a mother who is incapable of providing a suitable life for herself or her child as a result of having that child. Child abuse, neglect, depression, PPD, etc., are all very common results of having hcildren when you aren't emotionally, physically, and or financially ready for children.

You people are evil incarnate.

[Spiffor]

Re: Re: A PERSPECTIVE

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You could find another woman who was willing to have children and sire much progeny with her. If you want children that badly, why not do this? And that doesn't involve you forcing someone to carry fetuses to term against their will.

There's also the possibility of adoption, if reproduction isn't an option anymore.

[Urban Ranger]

Re: A PERSPECTIVE

Originally posted by beingofone
This world has made the most precious of all gifts, LIFE cheap and disposable.

Unless you don't eat, you are involved in the destruction of life.

Of course, you may be talking about human life. The only thing that set us apart from other species is our sentience. Foetuses don't have sentience, hence, they aren't human beings.

[Spiffor]

Re: Re: A PERSPECTIVE

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You people are evil incarnate.