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I suppose the patient-minded liberals tolerate it, as they know the pull goes in their direction (albeit slowly).
But I don't know if I would have the patience in their situation. Germany's system reacts extremely slowly.
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Hopefully, integration in the EU will solidify and accellerate this trend.
But I don't know if I would have the patience in their situation. Germany's system reacts extremely slowly.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891 -
Any system reacts extremely slowly.DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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OK. How about extremely, extremely slowly?
I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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Spiffor's right: what happened to the evil tongue smiley?DISCLAIMER: the author of the above written texts does not warrant or assume any legal liability or responsibility for any offence and insult; disrespect, arrogance and related forms of demeaning behaviour; discrimination based on race, gender, age, income class, body mass, living area, political voting-record, football fan-ship and musical preference; insensitivity towards material, emotional or spiritual distress; and attempted emotional or financial black-mailing, skirt-chasing or death-threats perceived by the reader of the said written texts.Comment
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Actually higher productivity makes recessions worse, because of the layoffs.Originally posted by axi
It's the same as productivity increases. Employees will have no incentive to increase their productivity more than their wages increase and definitely not since a stagnant work volume means productivity increase = unneeded staff = layoffs. Thus, while a higher productivity is desperately needed in times of recession, the only time to push for them is in time of economic boom.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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The problem is once good times do come all the anti-reform types say the reforms aren't needed. The 90's were great times world wide, mildly ok times in Germany, but still little in the way of meaningful reform was accomplished. Yes, there will be lay offs if reforms occur but the sooner reforms are completed the sooner companies will make profits (by shedding excess labor) and the sooner they will start hiring again.Originally posted by axi
Do you think the people are stupid? Do you sincerely believe that the working majority would ever concede to lifting restrictions on firing employees, during an economic recession?Last edited by Dinner; January 5, 2005, 14:40.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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I don't agree with this supply-side analysis. It may be too hard to fire people in Germany, but ending people's unemployment benefits is only going to make things worse in a recession. You can't end a recession by trying to get people to work. That has been shown to be false time and time again.Originally posted by DanS
The fact that unemployment benefits were proportional to wages was a good feature of the system. We have such a system in the US and it helps people cover their large home mortgages, etc. The US has very generous unemployment payments compared to most other developed countries.
However, the thing that was killing them was that unemployment benefits didn't expire. So you could have those proportional payments for a long, long time (forever?). As you say, there is no incentive to work. In the US, the congress usually extends unemployment benefits if there is a recession on, even though unemployment payments are only made for 3 months during OK economic times. So if we had a recession as long as Germany's, we might have been in a similar situation...
In addition, in the US, people tend to hide out in the disability system to make it through tough economic times. Because of such country-specific quarks, I would be hesitant in making such precise comparisons across countries. However, I do think it's clear that Germany has a much worse unemployment picture than a lot of other places, including the US.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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Why should the workers be sacrificed for the economy? If someone needs to bled, let it be those who can afford it, not those who creat the wealth of society for a pittance.
BTW, our unemployment figures in the U.S. are crap. My unemployment benies ran out at the begining of December. I have no job. I am not counted as unemployed. There's lots of other people in my boat too.
BTW, bennies in the U.S. last 26 weeks, roughly six months. During the last recession, Congress extended them an additional 13 weeks, but because of the election, they didn't extend them again in 2004, cuz that would be an admission that the economy was still doing poorly. In previous recessions, Congress has extended benefits up to two years. In Bush senior's Admin, bennies were extended an additional six months, IIRC.
Bennies are proportional up to a point. It's 2/3rds your previous income, up to $275 (depending on the state) per week. so I was getting 1/6th my former pay. Enough to keep me in hearth and home, but little else.Last edited by chequita guevara; January 5, 2005, 14:35.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...Comment
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Chegitz, your problem is you believe in a system that would raise unemployment to 50% (source: Angola).For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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You get your facts about the German economy from a war torn African country Feziancarlo?Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
-Richard DawkinsComment
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Unemploment benefits help in a recession, not hurt. I'm sure there is a point were that could reverse, but it's not likely in reality.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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I think you are missing the forest for the trees here, Kid. In the big picture higher productivity makes recessions less likely.Originally posted by Kidicious
Actually higher productivity makes recessions worse, because of the layoffs.Try http://wordforge.net/index.php for discussion and debate.Comment
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No. Productivity impovements do nothing for stability, and can actually cause a recession.Originally posted by Oerdin
I think you are missing the forest for the trees here, Kid. In the big picture higher productivity makes recessions less likely.I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
- Justice Brett KavanaughComment
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For a short time, yes. But if you have them for a very long period of time, or forever, it would encourage people not to work. Sorry but communism doesn't work.Originally posted by Kidicious
Unemploment benefits help in a recession, not hurt. I'm sure there is a point were that could reverse, but it's not likely in reality.For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)Comment
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No it doesn't. Higher productivity is what causes recessions, as increased output isn't matched by increased demand. With an overabundence of goods available, profits slump, layoffs ensue, and bad times are had by all. At best, various economic measures can delay a recession. They cannot be prevented. They are part and parcel of the capitalist system, and we've had recessions every ten to seven years since 1825 (and even briefer period during the post-war period).Originally posted by Oerdin
In the big picture higher productivity makes recessions less likely.
This isn't to say we should avoid higher productivity, but killing demand during a recessions (by killing benefits) isn't going to spur the economy on. It's going to make it worse as demand contracts with people having less money to spend.
It's not as if Germany's going begging for workers. Unemployment is measured by people actively looking for work. That means they aren't sitting on their asses sponging off the state, but trying to get a job.Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...Comment
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