Eliminate Social Security - Dont 'Privitize it'

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by pchang
Places like the UK with "universal" health care really have a two tier system. Poor people rely on "universal" health care for basic needs. They can even get things like hip replacements, but there are long waiting periods, because the number of applicants far exceeds the capacity of the system.

Depends on the country, and depends on the kind of operation (all countries don't have a system identical to Britain's).
For complex or non-urgent operations like hip replacement, there can be a long waiting time (Personally, I have been stalling a coloscopy for years because my studies prevent me from being able to arrange a date monthes in advance, and I can't hope to have a coloscopy any faster).
But for everyday practice, at least in France and Germany, things go very fast. If I want to see the doctor (any doctor), I simply go to his practice and wait in the waiting room. In France, I have to pay up front, and I'll be reimbursed later. In Germany, I don't even need to carry money, as it is immediately paid by the Healthcare system.

Same goes for emergencies. They work. Same goes for conditions that are not life-threatening, but are under time pressure nonetheless, like abortion. They work too, and in time.

Now, it is true that private medicine (by "private", in France and Germany, I mostly mean "who have prices higher than those decided by the healthcare system", because most health personnel in these two countries is not employed by the State anyway) progresses quickly.
But the immense majority of people continue to rely on State-sponsored medicine, especially for the most important operations.

[JohnT]

Personally, I have been stalling a coloscopy for years because my studies prevent me from being able to arrange a date monthes in advance, and I can't hope to have a coloscopy any faster

Are you serious?

I'm having a little bit of issues back there, and I just went to the doctor and, after the examination, gave me some dietary advice and cautioned me that, because of my age, it wouldn't kill me to have a coloscopy. When I asked him about it, he began by saying "We can probably get you in to see one (a coloscopist? Coloscopologist? ) by next week, with the actual scoping happening about a week after that..."

Of course, I haven't the slightest idea what your problem is so it might not be urgent (like the removal of anal warts*), but here in the US we take (or are supposed to take) things like colon issues very seriously. So scoping is quite a common procedure and is by no means considered "complex" or "non urgent".


*Old Saturday Night Live joke.

[JohnT]

Arguments that will be made in 2005, as well as 2004

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Most people assume health care is a right. That makes it a right. A right is what people say a right is. Rights don't exist independently of human beings, society, and social agreement.

FWIW, this is a point that Ned made earlier, in another thread and Imran jumped his ass about it.

Funnily enough, Berzerker responded the exact same way as Imran did!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by JohnT
Of course, I haven't the slightest idea what your problem is so it might not be urgent (like the removal of anal warts*), but here in the US we take (or are supposed to take) things like colon issues very seriously. So scoping is quite a common procedure and is by no means considered "complex" or "non urgent".

For me it's a supposedly routine check, as my mother nearly had a colon cancer when she was young. The last time I did it (when I was 15, i.e 8 years ago), no problem appeared, but I was to make one more 5 years later.

I'm very mobile with my studies, with me being between Bordeaux, Stuttgart and Paris. Besides, I don't like coloscopies, so the several monthes of waiting time is a good excuse

I don't know if it would go fast if it wasn't considered a routine check, but an important check. I guess that at least I would be more motivated for it to happen quickly.

[GePap]

I wish I could just walk into a doctors office, or a dentists office, to get routine medical or dental work done....

[Sava]

Originally posted by Ming
Just like make booze legal eliminated organized crime

No, but you don't see the mob running moonshine anymore, do you? Legalization takes away a source of income for organized (and unorganized) crime.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

for some reason i know which guy in chicago has his head on straight . ..

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Most people don't assume that, but if 80% of the people say they have a right to enslave 10% of the population ("them"), would that create a right to slavery?

Yes. Rights are not intrinsic.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Sava
Yeah, some really crazy people think medical care is a human right. What morons...

Yes, they are morons, if they think unlimited medical care is.

[Kuciwalker]

.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon

The wheelchair ramps are a discrimination thing, and they do have a right to not be discriminated against.

You can spin that argument further though. Why should people who are in poor health through no fault of their own be disadvantaged with regard to health care.

Because being in poor health is completely relevent to the cost of healthcare.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


And it takes forever to get treatment in those countries.

Hence why people in those countries live longer.

It takes more time to get significant work done yes, but it is much easier to come in and do basic checkups, meaning there is the possibility of catching things earlier, when its cheaper to fix it. Second, perhaps these states also have more complete and reliable figures on health problems meaning better health care policy.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by pchang
Places like the UK with "universal" health care really have a two tier system. Poor people rely on "universal" health care for basic needs. They can even get things like hip replacements, but there are long waiting periods, because the number of applicants far exceeds the capacity of the system. In fact, this is the case for most things. Anyone with sufficient money pays for private insurance which operates much the way the US system does. These people get whatever they require and with much shorter waiting periods.

Not correct with respect to Canada. very few people have private health insurance except with respect to travels outside the country. It is sort of two -tiered though in that 98% of people get treated the same while a truly rich person may pay a premium to get something done quicker in the states.

Mrs Flubebr worked in a US private hospital and was appalled at the rates charged and the fact that some insurance provider would be dictating the drugs that could be given to treat patients . .. The canadian system is far from perfect but we spend a LOT less money and the result is a pretty good system

If I feel the need to go to a doctor, I call my regular physician and make an appointnment ( and get in within 2-3 days usually . .. If I feel a more immediate need, I go to a walk-in clinic and usually get seen inside an hour. Neither visit would cost me a penny as long as I have my health card--- The system gets billed a standardized rate for the visit.

[Berzerker]

One reason US healthcare is expensive is we have a quasi-socialist system that piggybacked on the growth of a 3rd party payment system begun during WW II. All health care systems, even in a libertarian system, has "cost-shifting", but when the cost shifting becomes institutionalised thru partial government take overs of health care, the cost goes up for everyone with private consumers hit the hardest and earliest.

"Hello Doc, we're from Medicare and we don't want you charging that much for hip replacements. If you need to, charge your other patients more to make up for the loss..."

chegitz -

Yes. Rights are not intrinsic.

Right - n. That which is just, morally good, legal, proper, or fitting.

Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature.

righter n.
Synonyms: right, privilege, prerogative, perquisite, birthright
These nouns apply to something, such as a power or possession, to which one has an established claim. Right refers to a legally, morally, or traditionally just claim: “I'm a champion for the Rights of Woman” (Maria Edgeworth). “An unconditional right to say what one pleases about public affairs is what I consider to be the minimum guarantee of the First Amendment” (Hugo L. Black).

2 : something to which one has a just claim: as a : a power, privilege, or condition of existence to which one has a natural claim of enjoyment or possession —see also NATURAL RIGHT

[Ming]

Originally posted by Sava
No, but you don't see the mob running moonshine anymore, do you? Legalization takes away a source of income for organized (and unorganized) crime.

Yep... takes away ONE source, and they just find other ways... and there are plenty left

So anybody that thinks legalizing drugs will end gangs and organized crime is living in fantasy land