com/cap/com debate - laboring under delusions

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Actually I don't find accounting that desirable of work. It's ok, but there certainly are other jobs. However, there is demand for accounting so that is what I go to school for. My father gave me very bad advice and told me to study what I found interesting and the money would follow. I studied economics initially, and got a degree. Where the hell is the money in that? You have to get a doctors degree, but I have no means to go to school for that? That is a waste of resources, and it's not exactly making me happy.

But in Kidumism, the state has created a job for you picking up trash. And you don't have any choice to move to a different job. Wow, your system really is an improvement for people like you!

[Spiffor]

Unfortunately, we are all of "above average intelligence". With proper exploitation, human intelligence can be a wonder in all but a few individuals. Most people who do repetitive labour are wasting their intelligence on such stupid jobs.
I don't think our brain structure eveolved too much in 200 years, but only two centuries ago, most people were peasants, and their intelligence was hardly tapped. Fact is, repetitive labour will be a reality as long as it won't be fully automated. And there will be people whose intelligence will be wasted in the process:

The question is: how can we make a system that is both efficient and fairer, in that those people who see their potential wasted do not get financially ****ed, at least?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Look I'm a guy of above average intelligence. I have some propensity for math and things like that. I won't be a coal miner in a communist system, but in a capitalist system that's a very real possibility, because of the free market. If the market changes during my training, or I get laid off during my career I'm going to have to scramble to survive, and I might very well end up in that coal mine.

So once you equalize opportunities in education and social support, you still think you're going to be of above average intelligence, assuming you are now?

Not to mention that you apparently have way below average motivation to do much. Or is there another way to explain why people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Not to mention that you apparently have way below average motivation to do much. Or is there another way to explain why people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do?

I don't know the particulars for Kid, but there are important societal factors. Family's income, family's emphasis on education, family's relationships considerably influence the early career-making (starting with success at school and choice of university branch). The attitudes of the social groups you belong to (friends' circles, overall culture) also influence what choices you'll make.

Now, there are people who can transcend a bad background through hard work, and there are probably people who have a background similar to Kid's and who yet managed to get better jobs despite a lower intelligence. But to say that hard work is the only factor in general is perfectly false.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kontiki


But in Kidumism, the state has created a job for you picking up trash. And you don't have any choice to move to a different job. Wow, your system really is an improvement for people like you!

If I'm not the best person to do the other jobs then I don't really expect to have those jobs. But I would still be happy to live in a communist society that treats it's trash pickerupers very well.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kontiki


So once you equalize opportunities in education and social support, you still think you're going to be of above average intelligence, assuming you are now?

Not to mention that you apparently have way below average motivation to do much. Or is there another way to explain why people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do?

Another *******

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I don't know the particulars for Kid, but there are important societal factors. Family's income, family's emphasis on education, family's relationships considerably influence the early career-making (starting with success at school and choice of university branch). The attitudes of the social groups you belong to (friends' circles, overall culture) also influence what choices you'll make.

Now, there are people who can transcend a bad background through hard work, and there are probably people who have a background similar to Kid's and who yet managed to get better jobs despite a lower intelligence. But to say that hard work is the only factor in general is perfectly false.

The market has a lot to do with it too. A lot of it is making choices for yourself. Making choices for yourself isn't all smarts though. In fact, it's mostly luck. And it means that you just go after the highest paying jobs, and not the jobs that you truly desire.

[Kidlicious]

Another *******,

How exaclty does being laid off make you lazy? What about training for a career that is closed? How does that make you lazy? Why do you think that the person who keeps his job or trains for an open career is motivated?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kidicious
The market has a lot to do with it too. A lot of it is making choices for yourself. Making choices for yourself isn't all smarts though. In fact, it's mostly luck.

Actually, it's a blend of both. In your formative years, the choice you make (between general or trade education, long or short studies) has strongly to do with your social and cultural background. The precise job you'll occupy after your formative years, among the panel that your education opens to you, depends strongly on luck.

And it means that you just go after the highest paying jobs, and not the jobs that you truly desire.

True. Sometimes you can shine in the job you truly desire, but in general, you go where there simply is demand.

[OzzyKP]

Capcom

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Actually, it's a blend of both. In your formative years, the choice you make (between general or trade education, long or short studies) has strongly to do with your social and cultural background. The precise job you'll occupy after your formative years, among the panel that your education opens to you, depends strongly on luck.

That sounds about right to me.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
Capcom

Isn't that a freedom fighter for your little children's revolutionary movement?

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Flubber
Plan a job and train people for it. That's just laughable. First of all, people are not interchangeable parts with the same abilities to do each job, nor a desire to do them. So unless you have a dictatorial system where people are ordered to do things they otherwise would not ( or face dire consequences) I can't see the central planning thing working.

Individuals are not interchangeable parts. A population is composed of a large number of individuals, each with her own likes and dislikes. If you have a large enough population, you can pretty much find somebody to fill any job opening you have.

Originally posted by Flubber
Frankly some jobs are more desirable than others.

I agree, but different people have different preferences. Some rather be carpenters than doctors, say.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Kontiki
Not to mention that you apparently have way below average motivation to do much. Or is there another way to explain why people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do?

There are several problems with this.

First of all, motivation directly ties with interest. IOW, if somebody is interested in doing something, he will be much more motivated doing it. Hunger and death never serve as good motivators - sure, people will work to avoid these, but productivity will never get high.

Secondly, claiming that "people alot dumber than you now have better jobs than you do" is unfair. As it was pointed out before, luck is an important if not overarching factor. Are you dumber than GWB? Why is he the President of the United States and you aren't?

Thirdly, how do you define "better jobs?" Higher pay? More social recognition? Large number of perks? What?

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Another *******,

How exaclty does being laid off make you lazy? What about training for a career that is closed? How does that make you lazy? Why do you think that the person who keeps his job or trains for an open career is motivated?

Useless to society,

Motivated people will take the initiative and look at long-term prospects for employment and not go down a dead end. If they find themselves in a job that looks to be on the chopping block, they've probably seen the writing on the wall and made alternative arrangements. They may not always do what they want or live where they want, but they'll suck it up with a long term plan and make things happen for themselves, and not ***** about how the system is screwing them over.

A lazy person will accept their fate, maybe complain about it, and refuse to do any number of things that will improve their financial position.