com/cap/com debate - laboring under delusions

[chequita guevara]

Continue here.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Let me ask you this Che. What do you think the end result was going to be with the NEP, and how was this going to happen?

posted by Che
It was never meant to be a permenent policy. The purpose was to rescue Russia from the complete collapse of their economy. The end result was going to be, once Russia ha recovered from seven years of war, to begin a gradual collectivization.

Yes I realize that, but what was the idea about how this would become socialism? And how do you think it would have turned out if it weren't for forced collectivization?

[Kontiki]

I'll just quote my last post from the previous thread, addressed to Kid:

Spiffor seems to be going in the same direction as me, although I'd still like to hear how this is more fair and prevents exploitation.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kontiki
I'll just quote my last post from the previous thread, addressed to Kid:

Spiffor seems to be going in the same direction as me, although I'd still like to hear how this is more fair and prevents exploitation.

Here's how it's more fair? Not everyone has a job, let alone a job that they want. You may not call it a choice but it's an improvement. It's not a system for people like you. It's a system for people like me. If you don't think it's fair, well, I could really care less.

[Flubber]

Plan a job and train people for it. That's just laughable. First of all, people are not interchangeable parts with the same abilities to do each job, nor a desire to do them. So unless you have a dictatorial system where people are ordered to do things they otherwise would not ( or face dire consequences) I can't see the central planning thing working. Frankly some jobs are more desirable than others.


Take nursing. Mrs Flubber is an RN. There is another study that predicts a nursing shortage again in about 3 years ( both in Canada and throughout the US UK etc). When the shortage was predicted a few years back, the market responded and most jurisdictions saw nurses get big raises. The result was fewer retirements, some more entries into nursing schools, a number of nurses re-entering the profession after time away with children or trying other career options. The bottom line is that market responded and additional nurses became available alleviating the shortage.

It still exists though. On a local level Mrs Flubber indicated she was one of 5 nurses last week that was on double pay overtime ( in a 14 nurse unit). Frankly her unit does not have enough nurses so they compensate by offering overtime. Mrs Flubber is one of several nurses that will never go in unless double time is offered.


Now in a planned economy with wage equalization ( as I see Kid and not che proposing), I assume that overtime would be frowned on and double time not allowed. Problem is that those darn sick people are so inconsistent in how many get sick. One weekend you need 10 nurses in a unit and next time 14. Rotating nurses is not an option due to safety concerns ( it takes months to even get to reasonable competence in an ICU)

I'm guessing that the planned economy folks would simply say train more folks. But hmmm you are going to need more than enough to meet maximum demand with no incentives for overtime which means more than you need most of the time. PLUS you have to get people to agree to go into a profession that is stressful and hard. It is a battle to attract nurses now when they can make 60-70K . . . How exactly are you going to convince people to do this job on a wide scale when there is NO financial incentive . Its not glamorous -- unless you see cleaming biodily fluids from a person as somehow more appealing than say mopping them from the floor.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Here's how it's more fair? Not everyone has a job, let alone a job that they want. You may not call it a choice but it's an improvement. It's not a system for people like you. It's a system for people like me. If you don't think it's fair, well, I could really care less.

and that my friends sums up kids ideas--


ITS A SYSTEM FOR HIM !!!


and to hell with the rest of us


you are missing good stuff here kid

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You may not call it a choice but it's an improvement. It's not a system for people like you. It's a system for people like me. If you don't think it's fair, well, I could really care less.

Waht are "people like you" and "people like me" ?

[Kidlicious]

Seriously, I haven't found any jobs that I like. All of the jobs that I've taken have been out of necessity and basically determined by the market place. I don't know anything about selecting your job and going out there and doing it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Waht are "people like you" and "people like me" ?

Some people have more choices in capitalism. Most don't have really any at all. They just go through life struggling to survive and doing what is necessary to survive. That includes taking jobs they don't want to do.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Flubber
Plan a job and train people for it. That's just laughable. First of all, people are not interchangeable parts with the same abilities to do each job, nor a desire to do them. So unless you have a dictatorial system where people are ordered to do things they otherwise would not ( or face dire consequences) I can't see the central planning thing working. Frankly some jobs are more desirable than others.

Actually, such a system can work without dictatorship. The planning authority decides how many new [insert job here] are needed this year, and they simply give a numerus clausus to the universities: everybody who wants can apply, but only the x best people will enter the cursus.

However, I'm not sure if such would be the system Kid supports, because such a system would be unfair to those who didn't manage to enter the cursus.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor
However, I'm not sure if such would be the system Kid supports, because such a system would be unfair to those who didn't manage to enter the cursus.

Not at all.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Seriously, I haven't found any jobs that I like. All of the jobs that I've taken have been out of necessity and basically determined by the market place. I don't know anything about selecting your job and going out there and doing it.

And thus you are a victim of capitalism's coercion. But you appear to be a student now, IIRC, and you do so because you want a better job (maybe not more exciting, but at least better paid). Would you prefer to be told by a planning comitee "You are now a coal miner, and you will live in the Yukon mines for the rest of your life"? I'm not sure that even you would like it.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Spiffor

And thus you are a victim of capitalism's coercion. But you appear to be a student now, IIRC, and you do so because you want a better job (maybe not more exciting, but at least better paid). Would you prefer to be told by a planning comitee "You are now a coal miner, and you will live in the Yukon mines for the rest of your life"? I'm not sure that even you would like it.

Actually I don't find accounting that desirable of work. It's ok, but there certainly are other jobs. However, there is demand for accounting so that is what I go to school for. My father gave me very bad advice and told me to study what I found interesting and the money would follow. I studied economics initially, and got a degree. Where the hell is the money in that? You have to get a doctors degree, but I have no means to go to school for that? That is a waste of resources, and it's not exactly making me happy.

[Kontiki]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Seriously, I haven't found any jobs that I like. All of the jobs that I've taken have been out of necessity and basically determined by the market place. I don't know anything about selecting your job and going out there and doing it.

And this changes in your system how? You still don't get to do a job you like, only you wouldn't be able to get a job you like even marginally more.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kontiki


And this changes in your system how? You still don't get to do a job you like, only you wouldn't be able to get a job you like even marginally more.

Look I'm a guy of above average intelligence. I have some propensity for math and things like that. I won't be a coal miner in a communist system, but in a capitalist system that's a very real possibility, because of the free market. If the market changes during my training, or I get laid off during my career I'm going to have to scramble to survive, and I might very well end up in that coal mine.