com/cap/com debate - laboring under delusions

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
I am compensated because MY stuff had a hand in the creation of whatever YOU built! I am paid a premium because I'm risking something that you are not.

-=Vel=-

And THAT is not work. So someone has to work so that you get that compensation. THAT is what I'm talking about. You don't want people to be compensated for their work, but you want to ***** about us taking what you worked for.

[Velociryx]

quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
I am compensated because MY stuff had a hand in the creation of whatever YOU built! I am paid a premium because I'm risking something that you are not.

-=Vel=-

From Kid:
And THAT is not work. So someone has to work so that you get that compensation. THAT is what I'm talking about. You don't want people to be compensated for their work, but you want to ***** about us taking what you worked for.

Untrue. It's work by proxy. If the use of MY stuff enables YOU to create something better or faster than before, or if it enables you to create something you would not have been able to create WITHOUT my stuff, then I am entitled to a cut, because without me, you'd have nothing, or significantly less than you do with me.

My stuff has a hand in your creations. To quote you, it's that simple.

You can either choose to pay my premium and have greater productivity, or not. I'm not forcing you. I'm merely offering you the opportunity. If you don't take it, I'm willing to bet someone else will.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
quote:
Originally posted by Velociryx
I am compensated because MY stuff had a hand in the creation of whatever YOU built! I am paid a premium because I'm risking something that you are not.

-=Vel=-

From Kid:
And THAT is not work. So someone has to work so that you get that compensation. THAT is what I'm talking about. You don't want people to be compensated for their work, but you want to ***** about us taking what you worked for.

Untrue. It's work by proxy. If the use of MY stuff enables YOU to create something better or faster than before, or if it enables you to create something you would not have been able to create WITHOUT my stuff, then I am entitled to a cut, because without me, you'd have nothing, or significantly less than you do with me.

My stuff has a hand in your creations. To quote you, it's that simple.

You can either choose to pay my premium and have greater productivity, or not. I'm not forcing you. I'm merely offering you the opportunity. If you don't take it, I'm willing to bet someone else will.

-=Vel=-

And when we all decide that we don't want to pay, then what will you say?

[Velociryx]

And when we all decide that we don't want to pay, then what will you say?

Well, the first thing I'll say is that by your own definition, if you decide not to pay, then you are not paying me the full value of my labor that I am lending to your cause.

The second thing I'll say is "good luck" in trying to build your stuff WITHOUT my help.

Of course, I suspect, this is just before the part where you pull the trigger and take my accumulated labor for yourself in the name of morality and fairness, right?

-=Vel=-

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kidicious

So that he can survive silly. Say the worker assembles the widgets at his house. That other guy hires him. Is the guy who hires the laborer entiled to anything?

Answer my question yes or no.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
And when we all decide that we don't want to pay, then what will you say?

Well, the first thing I'll say is that by your own definition, if you decide not to pay, then you are not paying me the full value of my labor that I am lending to your cause.

The second thing I'll say is "good luck" in trying to build your stuff WITHOUT my help.

Of course, I suspect, this is just before the part where you pull the trigger and take my accumulated labor for yourself in the name of morality and fairness, right?

-=Vel=-

You would be compensated fairly.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Answer my question yes or no.

Don't give me demands little boy.

[Velociryx]

You would be compensated fairly.

Oh really? How so, when you just said:

And when we all decide that we don't want to pay, then what will you say?

Sounds like you have a fairly warped sense of "fairness."

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Sounds like you have a fairly warped sense of "fairness."

We just want to keep the fruits of our labor. We see that we live in a system where there is no choice but to pay an 'incentive' so that we can work. We recieve nothing else for this, except the right to work. We think that's a 'warped sense of fairness.'

[Velociryx]

If by "keep the fruits of your labor" you mean to include labor that I participated in by proxy, by virtue of lending my capital to your cause, then I vehemently disagree, because at that point, you're not just keeping the fruits of your labor, you're keeping the fruits of mine too.

If you could have done said work WITHOUT my labor, you would have.

That you needed my capital suggests, rather strongly, that I bring something to the table in this equation.

You don't see the need to compensate me for my contribution. You somehow see this as "unfair" EVEN THO, without my contribution, you would have nothing, or significantly less than you do WITH my contribution.

And yet, because this "isn't work" by your esteemed and oft-changing definition, it has no value.

So tell me, Kid, why'd you wanna borrow my stuff to begin with, if it is without value and utterly non-contributory?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So tell me, Kid, why'd you wanna borrow my stuff to begin with, if it is without value and utterly non-contributory?

Of course it's valuable to me. Otherwise I would not pay for it. Again, the question is how valuable is it. If I have to borrow it then I have to pay more for it than it's worth. And if you are in business, then you have to charge more than it is worth to stay in business. So the agreement that we come to is not the fair value.

[Velociryx]

Ahhh, so when you go to Lowes and "borrow" one of their tillers for $20.00 for the day, they're charging you more than the device is worth?

That's very interesting to me, since when I priced them new at Lowes, they were selling for almost three hundred.

So twenty is more than it's worth, even tho the going rate for a new one is three hundred.....and this exhorbitant price is unfair.

I begin to see your "fairness" in action.

-=Vel=-

[Kontiki]

Wow, this is the exact same argument is was having with Spiffor in the same thread. It's unbelievable how circular this is.

[Velociryx]

Of course it's valuable to me. Otherwise I would not pay for it. Again, the question is how valuable is it.

Yes...that IS the question. And since we know that value is not universal, but in the eye of the beholder, ONLY YOU can say how valuable it is TO YOU.

If the price I'm offering it at is LESS THAN OR EQUAL TO what you value it at, then you'll take the offer and go about your business. If not, then you will look elsewhere, but IF YOU AGREE to my price, then it is understood that you agree to my valuation of it. If you didn't, then its value would exceed its utility to you, and you wouldn't take my price.

End of story, and welcome to the dark side. With the admission that it has value to you, you have just admitted that NOT compensating me for it is unfair.

I knew you'd come around!

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Ahhh, so when you go to Lowes and "borrow" one of their tillers for $20.00 for the day, they're charging you more than the device is worth?

Of course. That's how they stay in business.