Self defense of the home(UK)

[David Floyd]

Ah, I understand your concepts of jurisprudence and law now- innocent until proven drunk, mentally ill or mistaken in the dark.

No, the concept of innocent until proven guilty applies against government institutions such as the police and courts. It doesn't apply to me when I'm defending myself - I don't have to see someone convicted of assault before I defend themselves.

I haven't advocated shooting people who accidentally wander into your house during the day for some unknown reason and you know for a fact they aren't trying to rob you. I haven't advocated shooting kids who are playing around and climb in an open windown in daylight, either.

I simply advocate having the right to shoot first when someone comes into your house behaving like a burglar or other type of criminal. The simple solution, if you are worried about people getting killed, is to avoid committing crimes

Why is that concept so hard? If you are worried about getting shot, don't break into people's houses!

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by David Floyd


No, the concept of innocent until proven guilty applies against government institutions such as the police and courts. It doesn't apply to me when I'm defending myself ...

I haven't advocated shooting people who accidentally wander into your house during the day for some unknown reason and you know for a fact they aren't trying to rob you.

Telepathy and precognition- all part of everyday justice in Floydville.

[David Floyd]

Telepathy and precognition- all part of everyday justice in Floydville.

That's exactly what you are asking me to do when you say that I shouldn't shoot burglars unless I know they mean me personal harm. I CAN'T know that, so why should the burden be on me? Again, and you haven't addressed this point yet, if a burglar doesn't want to be put in that situation, then he shouldn't be a burglar. Simple as that.

[David Floyd]

And I'm also calling bull**** on the "drunk" excuse. I've never been so drunk that I've tried to unlock what I thought was my door, failed, and got into what I thought was my house by breaking in. Come on. And I've been about as drunk as is physically possible, too - once I threw up 9 times in one night, kept on drinking in between each time of throwing up, ended the night sitting under a table at a bar, yet I STILL not only knew which apartment was mine, but I gave my ride directions to it.

Unless I just have an UNUSUALLY high tolerance for alcohol - which I don't - then the only way a drunk would actually break into a house would be intentional. Either they thought it'd be funny, they are actually trying to rob me, or something along those lines.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by David Floyd

That's exactly what you are asking me to do when you say that I shouldn't shoot burglars unless I know they mean me personal harm. I CAN'T know that, so why should the burden be on me? Again, and you haven't addressed this point yet, if a burglar doesn't want to be put in that situation, then he shouldn't be a burglar. Simple as that.

I haven't advocated shooting people who accidentally wander into your house during the day for some unknown reason and you know for a fact they aren't trying to rob you.

Hilarious- yet you've already assumed as fact that they are burglars.

And that you possess the magical gift of telling them apart. Could you advise yopur local police force of your precognitive and telepathic powers?

Actually don't stop there- I'm sure the F.B.I. , C.I.A. and the military-industrial complex would all love you to get in touch.



Welcome to Floydworld, home of the free and the dead.

Just make sure you know which one you want to be!

[David Floyd]

Hilarious- yet you've already assumed as fact that they are burglars.

No I haven't. I've specifically made the point that people who ACT as burglars can be treated as such. If you break into my house at night on a dare, and don't actually intend to rob me, I don't know that, nor can I know that. All I know is that you are in my house behaving as a burglar. Again and again and again I've made the point that the easy way to avoid getting shot is not to act like a burglar.

Idiot.

Then again, you aren't an idiot. You're trying to argue semantics in an attempt to avoid both the point and the actual question. But you know damn well I'm not claiming telepathy, nor am I advocating it's use in telling burglars from non-burglars. Assuming you have the ability to read the English language, which I've been able to do since I was approximately 4 years old, you would know that I advocate treating anyone who acts like a burglar the same way, and that the way to avoid the problem is to avoid acting like a burglar.

[David Floyd]

But why don't we play your game for a second. Other than burglary, state one legitimate reason a person might have for breaking into my house in the middle of the night, without any attempt to knock or call first. And when I say "legitimate", I don't mean "barely within the realm of possibility". I mean something plausible. "Drunk and stupid" don't cut it.

[child of Thor]

ummm.....how about "i was out walking my dog and my collostomy bag was near to bursting, all the street is well lighted so i try to sneak into someones house to use the toilet. I dont want to wake them as its 3am, and i'll leave $5 on the toilet to say thank you.

i'm just a nice guy in need of a little relief."

would that do

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by child of Thor
ummm.....how about "i was out walking my dog and my collostomy bag was near to bursting, all the street is well lighted so i try to sneak into someones house to use the toilet. I dont want to wake them as its 3am, and i'll leave $5 on the toilet to say thank you.

i'm just a nice guy in need of a little relief."

would that do

Just crap at their lawn, like your dog would do

[asleepathewheel]

Originally posted by David Floyd
And I'm also calling bull**** on the "drunk" excuse. I've never been so drunk that I've tried to unlock what I thought was my door, failed, and got into what I thought was my house by breaking in. Come on. And I've been about as drunk as is physically possible, too - once I threw up 9 times in one night, kept on drinking in between each time of throwing up, ended the night sitting under a table at a bar, yet I STILL not only knew which apartment was mine, but I gave my ride directions to it.

Unless I just have an UNUSUALLY high tolerance for alcohol - which I don't - then the only way a drunk would actually break into a house would be intentional. Either they thought it'd be funny, they are actually trying to rob me, or something along those lines.

Are you calling me a liar?

That wasn't a second hand friend of a friend account I gave you. It was someone I worked with at the time. Walked into work "Hey, why's everything so quiet?" "Debbie's dead..."

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by asleepathewheel


Are you calling me a liar?

That wasn't a second hand friend of a friend account I gave you. It was someone I worked with at the time. Walked into work "Hey, why's everything so quiet?" "Debbie's dead..."

What happened to the killer?

[child of Thor]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4078747.stm

a bit more news on what might be coming to help out the homeowner in the uk.
Still politicians do like to talk.......

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by David Floyd
If someone smashes in my window and starts going around my house trying to find stuff to take, that is certainly a violent act, and shooting him is not murder.

What about wife beaters? Should they be shot, too?

I am sure firing a gun at another person with the intention to kill is considered murder in any civilised country.

Originally posted by David Floyd
Again, you may not think it's fair for the death penalty to be applied to burglary, but I don't think burglary is fair, either. Simple solution? Don't break into people's houses, and there is no problem.

It's not about fairness, it's about appropiate punishment. It's grossly excessive to shoot petty thieves.

[child of Thor]

how can you tell if the 'petty' thief is not a pshycotic, or high on drugs?

Why is he in your house univited - would you consider it reasonable behaviour to break into the house across the street from you?
If so then you must be a burgler.
If not then why make excuses for the burglers? They are the ones doing something wrong.
You really cant tell a good one from a bad one until they make their move, which could have tragic consequences for you or your family if you act to late or too 'softly'. So why give the intruder the benefit of the doubt - if he/she appears dangerous then put them down as hard as you can. Or be nice and maybe not live to watch your kids grow up?

[Gibsie]

You know, if the lawmakers here change things to "grossly disproportionate force", then you're still going to have the same problem- someone shoots an unarmed burglar, the defence is, "What if they were psychos, high on drugs etc.?"...