Oil for Food Scandal: Cash x 2

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by Drachasor
Looking over the data, I can find no evidence of any France official being bribed. At best you can say Saddam offered them vouchers, but so far no evidence has been revealed of the France officials cashing them in. There is circumstancial evidence that a Russian official might have, but this isn't clear.

I would emhpasize yet again, that there is no evidence any of these countries had their foreign policy shifted at all by this.

-Drachasor

Wow, you're a trusting sole in the midst of these comments. The investigation is ongoing and they have stated that there was bribery of the French and Russians. Though I'm sure you looked everything over thoroughly.

[Drake Tungsten]

Anyone else see that Kofi Annan's son is under investigation for Oil for Food corruption? It's not going to dissuade any of the blame-America-firsters here, but it's a pretty interesting turn of events...

[GePap]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

So Iraq was getting more money than they were supposed to get. What did they do with it?

Bribed influential people in France, Russia and the UN to make sure that no action would be taken against Saddam's regime through the United Nations. Puts Bush's diplomatic failures in a different light, doesn't it?

No, since we had more money to offer ourselves.

Heck, if it were all just about money, Bush is a really moron not to have dolled out the contracts, instead of holding them for his US cronies.

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Sikander
At least one U.S. company is under investigation by this committee. Our involvement in this matter is limited by the fact that Hussein didn't see much advantage in trying to bribe us to change our policy. What's interresting here is that there has been little to no activity on the part of the states who were much more involved in this activity and the U.N. to investigate. Which is exactly the behavior you are complaining about in the U.S., except it's happening elsewhere in this instance. As this thread is about shafting the people of Iraq in order to get rich for your own ends while shoring up a ruthless dictator why don't you save your blame Americanisms for one of the other dozen threads active today where they are more appropriate?

I think it is good that the Oil for Food issues are being looked into, but I have reservations about how partisan the looking seems to be. Also, every time this comes up there are some people that act like the Oil for Food problems were somehow going to let Saddam build WMDs out the wazoo and nuke the USA or something. Yes, it was a problem, but it wasn't a particularly massive problem.

I would repeat again that for most of the officials (the Russian one being the only exception I can see) there is no evidence that they ever used the voucher Saddam decided to send them. This means that the worst thing we can say for sure is that Saddam *attempted* to bribe people. Again, there is no evidence that anything Saddam did here changed government policy in any country.

A number of people need to stop blowing this out of proportion.

-Drachasor

[Drake Tungsten]

Originally posted by GePap
No, since we had more money to offer ourselves.

Heck, if it were all just about money, Bush is a really moron not to have dolled out the contracts, instead of holding them for his US cronies.

So you're saying corruption at the highest levels of the UN and the French and Russian governments is no big deal because the US could've bribed them too?

It's really amazing the lengths some of you will go to pin the blame on America for anything that goes wrong in the world...

[Dinner]

Drake: So far we have one PRIVATE Russian oil company with a voucher. Now, how exactly does that equal "corruption at the highest levels of the UN and the French and the Russian governments"? Please connect the dots here because I'm having trouble with your case.

[Drake Tungsten]

You need to follow the news more closely, Oerdin. The latest news is that Kofi Annan's own son is being investigated for corruption...

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You need to follow the news more closely, Oerdin. The latest news is that Kofi Annan's own son is being investigated for corruption...

Which doesn't inherently mean he did anything wrong, and last I checked he wasn't in charge of the U.N. Additionally, that doesn't support you throwing France and Russia into the mix.

-Drachasor

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Drachasor


I think it is good that the Oil for Food issues are being looked into, but I have reservations about how partisan the looking seems to be. Also, every time this comes up there are some people that act like the Oil for Food problems were somehow going to let Saddam build WMDs out the wazoo and nuke the USA or something. Yes, it was a problem, but it wasn't a particularly massive problem.

I would repeat again that for most of the officials (the Russian one being the only exception I can see) there is no evidence that they ever used the voucher Saddam decided to send them. This means that the worst thing we can say for sure is that Saddam *attempted* to bribe people. Again, there is no evidence that anything Saddam did here changed government policy in any country.

A number of people need to stop blowing this out of proportion.

-Drachasor

Hussein used some of the money from the illegal kickbacks he received to pay the families of Palestinian suicide bombers. IMO that's worse than building WMDs with it albeit less of a threat to the U.S. and / or our allies.

I'm really surprised that you don't seem to think that there is anything to this. There was bribery, massive kickbacks and payments for dirty services rendered and what seems to me to be an obvious attempt to influence policy indirectly by directing lucrative contracts to politically connected individuals. The vicitim here isn't the U.S., it's the people of Iraq who had the money which was supposed to feed them and provide for their needs leeched off by their corrupt dictator with the connivance of many in the West and elsewhere whose sole interest seems to have been enriching themselves. Where's the outrage?

If you really believe that there is nothing to this I'd be willing to enter into some sort of wager if we can agree to terms. This story has been brewing under the radar for over a year and I guarantee that before it's over a lot of people / companies are going to be disgraced.

[Az]

The world should've gone there not two years ago, but 12 years ago. Think of the people suffering and dying because of the sanctions....

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by Sikander

Hussein used some of the money from the illegal kickbacks he received to pay the families of Palestinian suicide bombers.

He gave money to widows and orphans?

I'm really surprised that you don't seem to think that there is anything to this. There was bribery, massive kickbacks and payments for dirty services rendered and what seems to me to be an obvious attempt to influence policy indirectly by directing lucrative contracts to politically connected individuals.

Did those individuals make the policy of their countries?

The vicitim here isn't the U.S., it's the people of Iraq who had the money which was supposed to feed them and provide for their needs leeched off by their corrupt dictator with the connivance of many in the West and elsewhere whose sole interest seems to have been enriching themselves. Where's the outrage?

There were a lot of protests against the sanctions in the late 90's, saying they punished the people and not the leaders

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie

He gave money to widows and orphans?

More often to the parents of impoverished and desperate youths who were manipulated into killing themselves and murdering others. But you don't really care about that do you?

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie
Did those individuals make the policy of their countries?

I bet in most cases they simply influenced the policies of their countries / the U.N.

Originally posted by Chemical Ollie

There were a lot of protests against the sanctions in the late 90's, saying they punished the people and not the leaders

When in fact it was the leadership which was punishing the people while a lot of corrupt people were helping them circumvent any penalty themselves.

[Drachasor]

As I have said repeatedly, Sikander, there is no evidence any policies were influenced by the Oil for Food problems. Neither you nor anyone else has provided anything to support this proposition. Indeed, there isn't even evidence that Saddam bribed officials, only that he attempted to. There were corruptions in businesses however, but those aren't government entities.

What was going on is certainly a bad thing, it isn't as bad as many are making it out to be. There are some bad companies and Iraqis suffered from this, but it wasn't anything we couldn't have fixed without a war. People trying to use Oil for Food and corruption as justifications for the war are being ridiculous.

Oh, and as for Saddam paying money to the families of suicide bombers, there is an easy way to stop that: freeze his accounts.

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by Azazel

The world should've gone there not two years ago, but 12 years ago. Think of the people suffering and dying because of the sanctions....

Occupying Iraq during the first Gulf War would have shattered the alliance. What we should have done is eliminate the Republican Guard (and we easily could have), and then helped the rebelling people acheive victory. Then we could have helped set up the new country.

-Drachasor

[Gibsie]

Who needs evidence when you have plenty of hyperbole? Them's corrupt! Leave the UN! Disband France!