Man Commits Suicide Over Election.

[DRoseDARs]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Sure you will. Burn the sonuva*****, like hundreds of thousands of other Americans will be doing.

Well yeah, if you want to be less melodramatic about it.

More seriously, I'm a little concerned about my own reaction to being given the "opportunity" to kill for my country. I'm not scared of the draft per se...I'm scared of myself. I'd rather not risk losing my soul. I have a darker side that I've worked very hard to weed out of my psyche, but I have no garuntee that I can keep it completely at bay. And that is what terrifies me.

[The Mad Monk]

The story behind the immolation picture:

The Self-Immolation
On June 11, 1963, Thich Quang Duc, a Buddhist monk from the Linh-Mu Pagoda in Hue, Vietnam, burned himself to death at a busy intersection in downtown Saigon, Vietnam.. Eye witness accounts state that Thich Quang Duc and at least two fellow monks arrived at the intersection by car, Thich Quang Duc got out of the car, assumed the traditional lotus position and the accompanying monks helped him pour gasoline over himself. He ignited the gasoline by lighting a match and burned to death in a matter of minutes. David Halberstam, a reporter for the New York Times covering the war in Vietnam, gave the following account:

I was to see that sight again, but once was enough. Flames were coming from a human being; his body was slowly withering and shriveling up, his head blackening and charring. In the air was the smell of burning human flesh; human beings burn surprisingly quickly. Behind me I could hear the sobbing of the Vietnamese who were now gathering. I was too shocked to cry, too confused to take notes or ask questions, too bewildered to even think…. As he burned he never moved a muscle, never uttered a sound, his outward composure in sharp contrast to the wailing people around him.

Thich Quang Duc had prepared himself for his self-immolation through several weeks of meditation and had explained his motivation in letters to members of his Buddhist community as well as to the government of South Vietnam in the weeks prior to his self-immolation. In these letters he described his desire to bring attention to the repressive policies of the Catholic Diem regime that controlled the South Vietnamese government at the time. Prior to the self-immolation, the South Vietnamese Buddhists had made the following requests to the Diem regime, asking it to:

Lift its ban on flying the traditional Buddhist flag;

Grant Buddhism the same rights as Catholicism;

Stop detaining Buddhists;

Give Buddhist monks and nuns the right to practice and spread their religion; and

Pay fair compensations to the victim’s families and punish those responsible for their deaths.

When these requests were not addressed by the Deim regime, Thich Quang Duc carried out his self-immolation. Following his death, Thich Quang Duc was cremated and legend has it that his heart would not burn. As a result, his heart is considered Holy and is in the custody of the Reserve Bank of Vietnam.

While Thich Quang Duc’s self-immolation has received little attention from religious scholars, it has been interpreted from both a religious and political perspective. From the prevailing point of view he has been "exclusively conceptualized as a transhistorical, purely religious agent, virtually homologous with his specifically religious forebears and ancestors." Therefore, his self-immolation is seen as a "religious suicide" and is religiously justified based on Chinese Buddhist texts written between the fifth and tenth centuries C.E.

On the otherhand it has been pointed out by both Thich Nhat Hnah and Russell McCutcheon that by contextualizing the event in 1963 Vietnam, the self-immolation can be seen as a "political act" aimed at calling attention to the injustices being perpetrated against the South Vietnamese people by a puppet government of Euro-American imperialism. In this context, Thich Nhat Hnah describes the act of self-immolation as follows:

The press spoke then of suicide, but in the essence, it is not. It is not even a protest. What the monks said in the letters they left before burning themselves aimed only at alarming, at moving the hearts of the oppressors, and at calling the attention of the world to the suffering endured then by the Vietnamese. To burn oneself by fire is to prove that what one is saying is of the utmost importance…. The Vietnamese monk, by burning himself, says with all his strength and determination that he can endure the greatest of sufferings to protect his people…. To express will by burning oneself, therefore, is not to commit an act of destruction but to perform an act of construction, that is, to suffer and to die for the sake of one’s people. This is not suicide.

Thich Nhat Hanh goes on to explaing why Thich Quang Duc’s self-immolation was not a suicide, which is contrary to Buddhist teachings:

Suicide is an act of self-destruction, having as causes the following: (1) lack of courage to live and to cope with difficulties; (2) defeat by life and loss of all hope; (3) desire for nonexistence….. The monk who burns himself has lost neither courage nor hope; nor does he desire nonexistence. On the contrary, he is very courageous and hopeful and aspires for something good in the future. He does not think that he is destroying himself; he believes in the good fruition of his act of self-sacrifice for the sake of others…. I believe with all my heart that the monks who burned themselves did not aim at the death of their oppressors but only at a change in their policy. Their enemies are not man. They are intolerance, fanaticism, dictatorship, cupidity, hatred, and discrimination which lie within the heart of man.

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The Impact of the Self-Immolation
This famous picture was on President Kennedy's desk that day. As a result, Thich Quang Duc's self-immolation:

Accelerated the spread of "engaged Buddhism" that had begun in Vietnam in the 1930’s.

Led to the overthrow of the Diem regime in South Vietnam in November of 1963.

Helped change public opinion against the American backed South Vietnamese government and its war against the communist supported Viet Cong.

The social and political impact of Thich Quang Duc’s self-immolation was far reaching. It was reported in the New York Times the next day and a copy of the fach Quang Duc in 1963 has been followed by the self-immolation of several monks and by the continued activism of the "rebellious monks of Hue" against the communist government in Vietnam over the past three decades.

Who Was Thich Quang Duc?
Thich Quang Duc was born in 1897 and was 67 at the time of his self-immolation in 1963. He had lived in a Buddhist monastic community since he was seven years old and was ordained as a full Buddhist monk or Bhikku when he was twenty. Thich Quang Duc practiced an extreme ascetic purification way for several years, became a teacher, and spent many years rebuilding Buddhist temples in Vietnam prior to 1943. At the time of his death, he was a member of the Quan the Am temple and Director of rituals for the United Vietnamese Buddhist Congregation. Thich Quang Duc is considered to be a bodhisattva, "an enlightened being - one on the path to awakening who vows to forego complete enlightenment until he or she helps all other beings attain enlightenment."

Again...how does this compare to what happened yesterday?

[Ted Striker]

Two men protesting.

duh

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


This man obviously felt strongly enough about what happened to take an extreme action. The man travelled all the way to Ground Zero to leave the people of this nation a message.


His extreme act is a microcosm of the way alot of people feel. You can either keep denying it or recognize there is a real problem and that ALOT of people are very upset. People aren't despondant just because a candidate lost an election.

They are despondant about the way things are going in this country and the things we are doing in this world, and they wanted a change.

If you want to argue that direction, take it to another thread, as there are about 20 of them already.

But the fact remains is that this man killed himself because he wanted people to know how he felt. There is no difference between him and the monks. They both were making a statement.

I don't remember people commiting suicide over the re-elections of Reagan or Clinton. It's fine to want change, and commendable to work for change.

This was an extreme, utterly stupid, overreaction to a normal event in American politics.

Comparing it to the Buddhist monk's action is an insult to the monk.

[The Mad Monk]

If he wanted people to know how he felt, he should have written an editorial.

As it is, he didn't even leave a note. Some statement.

[David Floyd]

More seriously, I'm a little concerned about my own reaction to being given the "opportunity" to kill for my country. I'm not scared of the draft per se...I'm scared of myself. I'd rather not risk losing my soul. I have a darker side that I've worked very hard to weed out of my psyche, but I have no garuntee that I can keep it completely at bay. And that is what terrifies me.

*shrug* Like I said, there will be plenty of people burning their draft cards - probably more than during Vietnam. File court challenges, refuse induction, and if enough people do it, they can't put you in prison. I think that enough people will refuse the draft to make enforcement of any draft possible - not that I think a draft is likely, though.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


I don't remember people commiting suicide over the re-elections of Reagan or Clinton.

So start asking yourself why.

This was an extreme, utterly stupid, overreaction to a normal event in American politics. Comparing it to the Buddhist monk's action is an insult to the monk.

And you are insulting the man by telling him what is good enough for him to give his life for.

[The Mad Monk]

Thich Quang Duc had prepared himself for his self-immolation through several weeks of meditation and had explained his motivation in letters to members of his Buddhist community as well as to the government of South Vietnam in the weeks prior to his self-immolation.

THIS is how you make a statement. Let them know why you're doing it before you do it. Then you do it when there is
NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
If he wanted people to know how he felt, he should have written an editorial.

As it is, he didn't even leave a note. Some statement.

He travelled all the way to Ground Zero from Georgia. You figure out the connection.

But he got your attention, didn't he?

[The Mad Monk]

Suicide is cowardice.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


THIS is how you make a statement. Let them know why you're doing it before you do it. Then you do it when there is
NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE.

Maybe he should have written an editorial.

[The Mad Monk]

NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE, Ted.

[DRoseDARs]

For some, suicide is a noble act of self-sacrifice. Unfortunately, most of them are suicide bombers.

Most, but I can't imagine all are.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
Suicide is cowardice.

So the monk is a coward too?

Which one is it?

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
NO OTHER ALTERNATIVE, Ted.

I like your double standards.