Bestest Presidents

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by DRoseDARs
Zombie Reagan

[MrFun]

If I had to choose only one president, it would be Abraham Lincoln as the best president in history of United States.

[David Floyd]

In spite of the fact that he violated his oath of office?

[MrFun]

I'm not going to debate about Lincoln's legacy with a crazy libertarian -- maybe when I'm up to it though, I will debate it again with a crazy neo-Confederate sometime.



But not at this late hour.

[David Floyd]

Whether or not you want to debate the point is irrelevant. Lincoln clearly failed to uphold the Constitution, at the very least, when he made the decision to suspend habeas corpus, and ignore the Supreme Court.

Now, you can argue that those actions were necessary, but you can't argue that they were Constitutional, and there are methods for acting outside the Constitution - he could either have pushed for a Constitutional amendment (which would be tough, seeing as how by his own admission the states of the CSA were still states in the Union), or by going to Congress.

[chequita guevara]

Re: Bestest Presidents

Harrison - died in office
Lincoln - assassinated
Garfield - assassinated
McKinley - assassinated
Harding - died in office
FDR - died in office
Kenedy - assassinated
Reagan - became brain dead in office

[Harry Tuttle]

Originally posted by David Floyd
The US didn't really become a major world player until the very end of the 19th Century anyway - any influence it exerted prior to that point was economic in nature. Would the US have expanded a little more slowly? Maybe, maybe not. Without the war, could the US have stepped up campaigns against the Indians, if it so desired? Sure, probably.

I disagree. Besides the economic improvement, which is a biggee...

1) The war caused the US to create a strong navy and army.

2) World opinion rose and grievances between the British and the US were settled, leading to a long standing friendship.

3) Andrew Jackson becomes a war hero, leading to his eventual Presidency. Jackson was an adamant proponent of Manifest Destiny.

4) Indian tribes in the soon to be Northwest Territories make peace with the US, allowing for quick settlement of the area.

6) British power south of Canada is scaled back and then abandoned, allowing for a quicker absorption of the land.

7) Rapid expansion ensues in the lands east of the Mississippi, with 4 states being created by the end of the decade.

Heck, there are lots of reasons. The main ones are the limiting of Brisith ambition in the Mississippi valley, increase industrialization of the Northeast due to blockades, and the assertion of US power in North America. I think the war played a big part.

Then again, if it weren't for Napolean, would I be speaking the King's English right now?

[Ted Striker]

No, it's all your interpretation on who violated it and who didn't. So he's right not to argue considering it's coming from a canned Libertarian interpretation.

I'm sure we can go into the raping of the militia amendment (you know the 2nd one) and how it's been hijacked so Joe Bob can keep an AK at home.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Geronimo
If FDR is one of our best presidents for beating the great depression why did he preside over more years of depression than any other president?

He didn't beat the Great Depression, WWII did that by creating a massive demand for industry and simulteinously taking millions of men out of the job pool. As soon as the war was over, the economy slumped. If the Korean Civil War hadn't started, the GD might have returned.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
No, it's all your interpretation on who violated it and who didn't. So he's right not to argue considering it's coming from a canned Libertarian interpretation.

Ted Striker agreeing with me

[David Floyd]

1) The war caused the US to create a strong navy and army.

Only for the duration. At the beginning of the Civil War, 50 years later, the US Regular Army consisted of about 16,000 men. The US Navy was in a little bit better shape, but not much, AND it lost it's qualitative edge that US frigates held during the Revolution and War of 1812.

2) World opinion rose and grievances between the British and the US were settled, leading to a long standing friendship.

Again, look at the US Civil War - Britain was certainly not pro-US.

3) Andrew Jackson becomes a war hero, leading to his eventual Presidency. Jackson was an adamant proponent of Manifest Destiny.

I'll give you that one, but I don't see why Andrew Jackson would have been required for expansion.

4) Indian tribes in the soon to be Northwest Territories make peace with the US, allowing for quick settlement of the area.

6) British power south of Canada is scaled back and then abandoned, allowing for a quicker absorption of the land.

7) Rapid expansion ensues in the lands east of the Mississippi, with 4 states being created by the end of the decade.

These all deal with expansion - admittedly, I'm much more familiar with the military aspects of the conflict and time period, but I don't think the absence of the war would have led to a halt in US expansion. Remember, the US population was growing VERY quickly, due to high birthrates and immigration, and this factor alone strongly encouraged territorial expansion.

And I already admitted that expansion could have been slowed, possibly, but certainly not stopped.

The kicker, though, is that all of these arguments about expansion are irrelevant, because they are made in hindsight. Western expansion and peaceful accomodation with Native Americans were certainly not advanced as reasons for war (although territorial expansion at Canada's expense certainly was).

[David Floyd]

No, it's all your interpretation on who violated it and who didn't. So he's right not to argue considering it's coming from a canned Libertarian interpretation.

Sorry, it's not just my interpretation. It's an actual Supreme Court case. Ex parte Merryman, to be precise.

http://www.tourolaw.edu/Patch/Merryman/

[chequita guevara]

The U.S. and G.B. weren't friendly until the 1890s, and ten years later, we almost got into a shooting war with them over Samoa (and with the Germans as well, a three way battle). It has to do with the U.S. acting as a mediator between GB and Venezuela over a border dispute.

[David Floyd]

As soon as the war was over, the economy slumped.

Well, that's true, but remember that by the end of WW2, the US was responsible for over half of the world's manufacturing, held 2/3s of the world's gold reserves, and produced 50% of the world's combined GNP. The economy had no place to go except down, as Western Europe and the Soviet Union recovered from the war.

[David Floyd]

Oh, and Ted - Chief Justice Taney was hardly a Libertarian