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This Year's US Economics Nobel Winner: Bush Tax Cuts Too Small

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  • #136
    Originally posted by Ned
    Kerry would not only close loopholes, he would raise taxes. He also admits that he cannot fund all the programs he wants without raising taxes. Remember, Clinton PROMISED a middle class tax cut. He was elected based (in part) on that promise. He lied. He immediately raised taxes, the largest tax increase in many decades. So, how can we trust Kerry.
    Clinton and Kerry are not the same people. Should I say Nixon is proof that you should never trust a Republican? Or that Bush I is proof that all Republicans will raise taxes?

    Personally, I think it is nigh inevitable that Kerry will raise taxes on the middle and lower clases *last*, if he is forced to raise them. Bush would do it first.

    Originally posted by Ned
    Besides, the major problem we face today is funding SS. We cannot fund it now without substantial tax increases which the Fed chairman warned would cripple the economy. The ONLY way out of this is to grow the economy substantially. So, the real question is which policy is more likely to result in economic growth. If you address THIS question, rather than just some socialist agenda to impoverish the so-called rich, then I would for one be much more receptive to your arguments.
    I believe the latest Nobel Prizewinner in Econ addressed this; you reduce taxes a lot on them middle and lower class. Income Tax is far from being the only way those groups are taxed by the Federal Government, and the sub-200k range still pays a good deal of income tax.

    Originally posted by Ned
    As to the poor and middle class, the most of them today pay little or no income taxes whatsoever. The people making 100k-300k are the one's really getting hammered by income taxes. Ask anyone in this income bracket how they feel about taxes.
    My father is in the above 200k range and must support 6 kids in College at once. He is in favor of having his taxes increased, because he can put the greater good over his own selfish desires.

    That's why he's voting for Kerry.

    -Drachasor
    "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

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    • #137
      Your dad is a fewl... greater good my ass. The money he's "letting" the government take from him is only going to support some crackheads habit.
      Monkey!!!

      Comment

      • #138
        Originally posted by Japher
        Your dad is a fewl... greater good my ass. The money he's "letting" the government take from him is only going to support some crackheads habit.
        I know a good psychiatrist or two for you. Perhaps you should PM me sometime about getting some help.

        -Drachasor
        "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

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        • #139
          I don't need a shrink! I just need someone to get rid of all these dragonflys!

          shessh

          Monkey!!!

          Comment

          • #140
            Originally posted by Japher
            I don't need a shrink! I just need someone to get rid of all these dragonflys!

            shessh

            There, there *injects Japher with Demoral* sleepy-time.

            -Drachasor
            "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

            Comment

            • #141
              This proves even more that most economics is BS. If anyone remembers Mondale at the '84 Democratic Convention, that is why politicians have to lie about taxes, people have been filled with so much Reagan propaganda that it is as if people do not realize that taxes are needed to pay for programs. A small tax increase is much easier on the paycheck then rediculous healthcare costs!

              Comment

              • #142
                Originally posted by Ned

                Besides, the major problem we face today is funding SS. We cannot fund it now without substantial tax increases which the Fed chairman warned would cripple the economy. The ONLY way out of this is to grow the economy substantially. So, the real question is which policy is more likely to result in economic growth.
                That's pissing in the wind Ned.

                The underlying gap - i.e. that even when the recession is taken into account - is so large that in order to close by the time the baby boomers start to retire the US's productivity growth rate would have to raise by 1.2% a year.
                Seeing as the improvement due to the 'new economy' was only half that I fail to see how this can be achieved in the timespan (indeed if at all).

                Face it the gap needs to be closed either by raising taxes or by cutting non-discretionary spending quite a bit.

                The crunch won't come for a 15 to 25 years but then the US could be in trouble - if at that time China decides to start an arms race then the US could be faced with the choice of either letting it's military dominance fade or giving up some key social programs, you would probably have to scrap Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid - just at the the time that the over 60s make up a majority of your electorate.

                What is at stake is far more than some budgetary kerfuffle, it's the very future of US power in the world.
                19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

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                • #143
                  The retirement age will be raised (i.e., the benefits will be cut), immigration will continue roughly at its current pace, and people will be working longer into old age.

                  I'm not extremely worried, while acknowledging that the system needs fixing. One good thing to do is to get the government mostly out of the pensions business, as Prescott (roughly) advocates.
                  I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                  Comment

                  • #144
                    Originally posted by Drachasor
                    What doctors aren't allowed to take vacations? Are we in some facists country where they have to work all the time?
                    According to what you call your 'logic' doctors, being paid so much, will not take vacations. Jeez, get real.
                    I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                    - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                    Comment

                    • #145
                      Originally posted by Kidicious
                      According to what you call your 'logic' doctors, being paid so much, will not take vacations. Jeez, get real.
                      ?

                      You are twisting it out of proportion. If they get paid more, they will tend to work more. That doesn't mean if you are paid a good deal you will never take a vacation.

                      Additionally, as far as doctors are concerned, general practitioners don't make a great deal of money. Many have trouble getting out of the debt of medical school.

                      I believe Prescott also says the effect is most noticeable with unskilled labor.

                      -Drachasor
                      "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

                      Comment

                      • #146
                        Originally posted by DanS
                        One good thing to do is to get the government mostly out of the pensions business, as Prescott (roughly) advocates.
                        How "roughly" is that?

                        -Drachasor
                        "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

                        Comment

                        • #147
                          Originally posted by DanS
                          One good thing to do is to get the government mostly out of the pensions business, as Prescott (roughly) advocates.
                          I would say the probability of improving things with that is below 5%. The probability that there will be no significant change is another 10%, and the probability that it will screw things up so bad that it will ruin the economy in a time of crisis is about 85%, especially since I have seen no decent plan to do so.
                          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                          Comment

                          • #148
                            Originally posted by Drachasor
                            You are twisting it out of proportion. If they get paid more, they will tend to work more. That doesn't mean if you are paid a good deal you will never take a vacation.
                            Look here. They take vacations because they can afford too. Is that sinking in at all?
                            Additionally, as far as doctors are concerned, general practitioners don't make a great deal of money. Many have trouble getting out of the debt of medical school.
                            And I doubt that they take as many vacations until they pay off their loans.
                            I believe Prescott also says the effect is most noticeable with unskilled labor.

                            -Drachasor
                            And that is what make his theory so ridiculous. Unskilled labor has to work more because they have no other options. Paying them more is only going to be incentive for them to quit one of their jobs or not take a second one.
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                            Comment

                            • #149
                              How "roughly" is that?
                              He doesn't say. But his model would require a 4% real return on the funds put into the system. Only the private sector has provided those kinds of return in the past.
                              Last edited by DanS; October 13, 2004, 18:01.
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment

                              • #150
                                Originally posted by Japher
                                Your dad is a fewl... greater good my ass. The money he's "letting" the government take from him is only going to support some crackheads habit.
                                In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

                                Comment

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