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SCOTUS will consider Ten Commandements Case!

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  • SCOTUS will consider Ten Commandements Case!

    The US Supreme Court will hear a case about the constitutionality of displaying the 10 Commandements in government buildings.

    This could be real big!

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    High Court to Decide Ten Commandments Issue

    Tuesday, October 12, 2004

    WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court (search) said Tuesday it will take up the constitutionality of Ten Commandments (search) displays on government land and buildings, a surprise announcement that puts justices in the middle of a politically sensitive issue.

    Justices have repeatedly refused to revisit issues raised by their 1980 decision that banned the posting of copies of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms.

    In the meantime, lower courts have reached a hodgepodge of conflicting rulings that allow displays in some instances but not in others.

    The high court will hear an appeal early next year involving displays in Kentucky and Texas.

    In the Texas case, the justices will decide if a Ten Commandments monument on the state Capitol grounds is an unconstitutional attempt to establish state-sponsored religion.

    A homeless man, Thomas Van Orden (search), lost his lawsuit to have the 6-foot tall red granite removed. The Fraternal Order of Eagles (search) donated the monument to the state in 1961. The group gave scores of similar monuments to American towns during the 1950s and '60s, and those have been the subject of multiple court fights.

    Separately, they will consider whether a lower court wrongly barred the posting of the Ten Commandments in Kentucky courthouses.

    McCreary and Pulaski county officials hung framed copies of the Ten Commandments in their courthouses and later added other documents, such as the Magna Charter and Declaration of Independence, after the display was challenged.

    The Ten Commandments contain both religious and secular directives, including the familiar proscriptions on stealing, killing and adultery. The Bible says God gave the list to Moses.

    The Constitution bars any state "establishment" of religion. That means the government cannot promote religion in general, or favor one faith over another.

    The lawyer for the Kentucky counties, Mathew Staver of the conservative law group Liberty Counsel (search), told justices that lower courts are fractured on the issue. A divided appeals court panel sided with the American Civil Liberties Union (search) in the Kentucky case.

    In the past decade, justices have refused to get involved in Ten Commandments disputes from around the country. Three conservative justices complained in 2001, when the court declined to rule on the constitutionality of a Ten Commandments display in front of the Elkhart, Ind., Municipal Building.

    Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, joined by Justices Antonin Scalia and Clarence Thomas, said the city sought to reflect the cultural, historical and legal significance of the commandments. Rehnquist noted that justices' own chambers includes a carving of Moses holding the Ten Commandments.

    The cases are Van Orden v. Perry, 03-1500 and McCreary County v. ACLU, 03-1693.
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    'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
    G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"

  • #2
    The court is probably sick of the hodgepodge of lower court rulings and wants to affirmatively reaffirm its 1980 decision. I can only see 3 justices who'd say it was ok.
    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

    Comment


    • #3
      It should be allowed. I think the Supreme court will find it ok to keep them there. Apparently it's ok to show religious symbols in this country now just so long as it's not Christian. Muslims I think I'll start an organization called Atheists against Islam and the ACLU.

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
        The court is probably sick of the hodgepodge of lower court rulings and wants to affirmatively reaffirm its 1980 decision. I can only see 3 justices who'd say it was ok.
        As the article notes, the Supreme Court itself has a carving of Moses and the 10 Commandements. How can SCOTUS say that government buildings cannot display the 10 commandements while they and other federal buildings do?

        This decision could be far reaching. It seems to me that you either allow the display of the 10 commandements or you ban it from every single government building across the land. And you cannot be selective either. Either all religious symbols are allowed or none. You cannot ban the 10 Commandements and allow muslim symbols for example.
        'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
        G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"

        Comment


        • #5
          the Supreme Court itself has a carving of Moses and the 10 Commandements. How can SCOTUS say that government buildings cannot display the 10 commandements while they and other federal buildings do?


          Because it doesn't have a place of prominence. It is displayed on equal footing with other sources of law, such as Hammurabi's code, etc. If it is placed with other historical law sources, then it's ok. Then it is for historical bases. However, if it is given preeminence, then it can't stand. That indicates that the 10 Commandments is being used by the judge/principal to make a decision.

          The intent matters.
          “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
          - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by The diplomat
            As the article notes, the Supreme Court itself has a carving of Moses and the 10 Commandements. How can SCOTUS say that government buildings cannot display the 10 commandements while they and other federal buildings do?
            Judges don't decide on the decoration of buildings. This is how it can happen.

            EDIT: I'll keep the first part of this post because I'm no DanS but it's clear that Imran's post is more useful to this debate.
            In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU.

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by MalevolentLight
              It should be allowed. I think the Supreme court will find it ok to keep them there. Apparently it's ok to show religious symbols in this country now just so long as it's not Christian. Muslims I think I'll start an organization called Atheists against Islam and the ACLU.


              Nobody's trying to grandstand on a monument to the Five Pillars of Islam in the courthouse rotunda.
              Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

              Comment


              • #8
                The Court is going to have to make some fine distinctions about what kind of displays are acceptable and what kind are not, otherwise it is going to have to do major reconstruction on its own ediface.
                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                Comment


                • #9
                  Uh oh, do I see something like a headscarf ban in public schools on it's way in the United States?

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I think some people haven't read the 1980 decision (ie, the distinction has been made). Go back to it.
                    “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                    - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Sir Ralph
                      Uh oh, do I see something like a headscarf ban in public schools on it's way in the United States?
                      Now, wouldn't that be a twist? Oppression of religion is what is the First Amendment really means?
                      http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Sir Ralph
                        Uh oh, do I see something like a headscarf ban in public schools on it's way in the United States?
                        Doubtful, SR. Ned actually has a point here. A headscarf ban, or analog, goes straight to individual behavior and religious observation. I don't even think Ashcroft would touch that is his wettest dreams.
                        Solomwi is very wise. - Imran Siddiqui

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Unless Congress voted for the Ten Commandments, I don't really see how any Federal Court has ANY jurisdiction. Unless, of course, you subscribe to the judicial rewriteing of the constitution that has been going on the last few decades.
                          "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Um... 1st Amendment, Plato? That usually suffices for jurisdiction .
                            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                              Um... 1st Amendment, Plato? That usually suffices for jurisdiction .
                              Oh! You mean this one?

                              Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
                              As I said...Unless CONGRESS voted for the ten commandments, how is it a Constitutional Issue? I can tell you how...The courts OF THEIR OWN VOLITION said so. Which, of course, is judicial legislation and is WRONG.
                              "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

                              Comment

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