I'm thinking about voting for Bush- talk me out of it

[Imran Siddiqui]

all of the value of privacy you had mentioned was in it's value for evading law enforcement

No, the value of privacy is the ability to be left alone and not have people pry into your private information, which you would rather be secret. It may not be illegal, but who knows, it may be considered immoral. I believe that gays in a relgious area of the country would not like their affiliation to be paraded around. That could cause them much difficulties.

The problem here is that privacy doesn't interfere with democracy in any sort of orderly predictible way.

So what? Who says that orderly predictable ways are the best ways to get results? Prohibition was defeated in random ways, but a bunch of unrelated people deciding not to follow the law.

If privacy is a necessary extension how does my freedom change if that extension is removed?

Your freedoms evaporate. Since you don't have any privacy anymore, how can you exist as a private person? Your freedom to act in legal ways may be compromised by the morality of the mob.

Liberty is not just the right to be left alone, but is much more than that, the right to be free, the right to do something, the right to speak, the right to practice religion, the right to travel freely, the right to work the job that you want, and to take another job.

All of those deal with (to varying degrees) the right to be left alone. I'll use your religious example, you have no right to religion if the government will crack down on your for issuing a viewpoint. Your freedom of religion is the right to be left alone in your religious beliefs.

The right to privacy doesn't mean you have to do it in private, it means that you are in " the state of being free from unsanctioned intrusion" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=privacy - The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition; Definition 2)

[GePap]

FOUR MORE YEARS OF JOHN ASHCROFT

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Fortunately SCOTUS has ruled on portions they found unconstitutional. Now the rest of it needs to be tested as well.

SCROTUM

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

all of the value of privacy you had mentioned was in it's value for evading law enforcement

No, the value of privacy is the ability to be left alone and not have people pry into your private information, which you would rather be secret. It may not be illegal, but who knows, it may be considered immoral. I believe that gays in a relgious area of the country would not like their affiliation to be paraded around. That could cause them much difficulties.

Ok we are making progress in understanding each other here. A great way to address this concern without making privacy an involate sacred right would be to bar the government from publicizing information it gathers in it's law enforcement activities. We could even bar it from using any such information to prosecute any victimless crime rather than barring it from gathering information on people.

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

The problem here is that privacy doesn't interfere with democracy in any sort of orderly predictible way.

So what? Who says that orderly predictable ways are the best ways to get results? Prohibition was defeated in random ways, but a bunch of unrelated people deciding not to follow the law.

Because an unorderly interference in democracy disenfranchises people. You don't regard disenfranchisment as undesireable?

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

If privacy is a necessary extension how does my freedom change if that extension is removed?

Your freedoms evaporate. Since you don't have any privacy anymore, how can you exist as a private person? Your freedom to act in legal ways may be compromised by the morality of the mob.

Again this is best addressed by not allowing the government to share its information with the public. The mob doesn't have access to my ss# so why would they automatically get to know if the government found out I was an athiest or something?

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Liberty is not just the right to be left alone, but is much more than that, the right to be free, the right to do something, the right to speak, the right to practice religion, the right to travel freely, the right to work the job that you want, and to take another job.

All of those deal with (to varying degrees) the right to be left alone. I'll use your religious example, you have no right to religion if the government will crack down on your for issuing a viewpoint. Your freedom of religion is the right to be left alone in your religious beliefs.

The right to privacy doesn't mean you have to do it in private, it means that you are in " the state of being free from unsanctioned intrusion" (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=privacy - The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition; Definition 2)

If you re-read what you wrote here you will see that you didn't offer any explanation as to why if the government found out what religion he was practicing it would suddenly interfere in his expression of his viewpoints.

FYI I regard privacy as a good thing. I just don't think it is wise to declare it absolutely inviolate and sacrosanct.

[PLATO]

"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

-Benjamin Franklin

"I have named the destroyers of nations: comfort, plenty, and security - out of which grow a bored and slothful cynicism, in which rebellion against the world as it is, and myself as I am, are submerged in listless self-satisfaction."

-John Steinbeck

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

-Samuel Adams

"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free."

-Clarence Darrow

"When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered."

Dorothy Thompson

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home"

Edward R. Murrow

"The only sure bulwark of continuing liberty is a government strong enough to protect the interests of the people, and a people strong enough and well enough informed to maintain its sovereign control over the government."

-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty."

-John Adams


Patriot Act

[Spec]

I'm thinking about voting for Bush- talk me out of it

If you do, I'll kill you.



There.




Spec.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You believe in civil liberties. Bush is the President of the PATRIOT Act. I think it's easy for you.

I used to be like Diss, wiggling back and forth, until I came to my senses and realized what a complete ****up Bush was. Bush isn't right-wing, he's just corrupt and incompetent.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


I used to be like Diss, wiggling back and forth, until I came to my senses and realized what a complete ****up Bush was. Bush isn't right-wing, he's just corrupt and incompetent.

I think politically he is more than competent. That is the sad part- they know how to play the country like a fiddle.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
When did you become a communist, Imran?

Since his Newsmax days, duh.

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap


I think politically he is more than competent. That is the sad part- they know how to play the country like a fiddle.

This is one of the least partisan things I can remember you saying...feeling okay today??

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Blake
Vote Bush to help bring about communist revolution!!!

See, things have to get really bad to bring on a revolution, and Bush is just the man for that job!

That's what the German Communists said about Hitler

[GePap]

Originally posted by PLATO


This is one of the least partisan things I can remember you saying...feeling okay today??

BUSH SUCKS! KILL CHENEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that better?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
I think politically he is more than competent. That is the sad part- they know how to play the country like a fiddle.

I meant he was incapable of implementing effective policy.

The only good things I can think of that the government did during the Bush admin were invading Afghanistan and establishing the do-not-call registry

[PLATO]

Originally posted by GePap


BUSH SUCKS! KILL CHENEY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Is that better?

Phew!! I was worried for a second! Thanks!

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by PLATO
"They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security"

-Benjamin Franklin

"I have named the destroyers of nations: comfort, plenty, and security - out of which grow a bored and slothful cynicism, in which rebellion against the world as it is, and myself as I am, are submerged in listless self-satisfaction."

-John Steinbeck

"If ye love wealth greater than liberty, the tranquility of servitude greater than the animating contest for freedom, go home from us in peace. We seek not your counsel, nor your arms. Crouch down and lick the hand that feeds you; and may posterity forget that ye were our countrymen."

-Samuel Adams

"You can only protect your liberties in this world by protecting the other man's freedom. You can only be free if I am free."

-Clarence Darrow

"When liberty is taken away by force it can be restored by force. When it is relinquished voluntarily by default it can never be recovered."

Dorothy Thompson

"We cannot defend freedom abroad by deserting it at home"

Edward R. Murrow

"The only sure bulwark of continuing liberty is a government strong enough to protect the interests of the people, and a people strong enough and well enough informed to maintain its sovereign control over the government."

-Franklin Delano Roosevelt

"There is danger from all men. The only maxim of a free government ought to be to trust no man living with power to endanger the public liberty."

-John Adams

thanks! those are some of my favorite quotes.

Originally posted by PLATO
Patriot Act

The patriot act doesnt touch our freedoms. Those quotes are about understanding that Freedom >>>> security

I couldn't agree more. Nice thing about the patriot act is that rather than sacrifice freedom for security it sacrifices privacy. If we wait until another even worse terract stirs up the beehive before doing anything the next emergency legislation passed to deal with the situation almost certainly will erode our liberty and that is what I want to see nipped in the bud. I shudder to think what the government will pass following a successful terrorist WMD terract that kills millions instead of thousands. Only way to head that off is good intelligence and vigiliance.

Patriot Act

Police State running my life