I'm thinking about voting for Bush- talk me out of it

[The Emperor Fabulous]

He once built a fort out of pillows while he was hopped up on cocaine and advil. He "wanted to keep the pixies out" or something along those lines...

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
You believe in civil liberties. Bush is the President of the PATRIOT Act. I think it's easy for you.

Imran would you please explain which of Americans civil liberties are violated by the Patriot act? This isn't a troll, I just never hear people say anything more than that it will threaten our privacy. Not only is our privacy already a joke what with all the data mining the private sector engages in and the nosy neighboors and the like but it sure as hell doesnt seem like it could qualify as any sort of 'civil liberty' since privacy is all about restricting the liberty of others while adding none to ourselves.

I've posted this a number of times but patriot act opponents never respond.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Here's one...they (the Feds) don't need any legal verification (warrant, etc) to wiretap your house. Privacy has NOTHING AT ALL to do with "restricting the liberty of others" and has everything to do with protecting your own. My phone conversations are my property alone, no one else's except the person on the opposite end, and CERTAINLY NOT a government who has one more tool towards full knowledge of all its citizens at all times.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Soon-to-be Head of the US Intelligence Center Porter Goss has repeatedly given approval for Big Brother tactics.

[Nubclear]

A vote for Bush is a vote for China.

[Jaguar]

Diss, you're not alone. I, too, am pretty undecided, and I've flip-flopped on which guy is better repeatedly. OMFG teh FLIP FLOP!

[Imran Siddiqui]

Imran would you please explain which of Americans civil liberties are violated by the Patriot act? This isn't a troll, I just never hear people say anything more than that it will threaten our privacy. Not only is our privacy already a joke what with all the data mining the private sector engages in and the nosy neighboors and the like but it sure as hell doesnt seem like it could qualify as any sort of 'civil liberty' since privacy is all about restricting the liberty of others while adding none to ourselves.

I've posted this a number of times but patriot act opponents never respond.

Privacy is a major civil liberty and saying that it isn't means that you don't understand the first thing about civil liberties. You the right to life is all about restricting the liberty of others to kill, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a 'liberty' that we have.

For an evaluation of how the PATRIOT Act violates our civil rights, chief among them being our privacy:

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12263&c=206

That is an good critique on the PATRIOT Act's talking away our civil liberties.

[Nubclear]

When did you become a communist, Imran?

[Shi Huangdi]

[blatant incendinary rightwing scaremongering]

Your past posst seem to indicate that you are not a feminist, Diss. However, John Kerry is. Himself henpecked to a wealthier and more forceful wife, John Kerry will use his power to advance the agenda of the hardline feminists.

John Kerry states on his website that he wishes to close the pay gap, the whole women supposedly earning 77 cents for every dollar a man earns deal. Never mind that that is mostly due to different career choices and that the gap can close naturally due to women doing bettering in education then men, John Kerry would invoke government's hand to try to intervene. And we can see with Affirmative Action that when the government creates discriminatory programs they can be rather hard to get rid of. If John Kerry gets elected, an employer might have to give a promotion to a women instead of you, or give a contract to a women instead of you, to avoid brining down the wrath of the federal government.

Now, granted, John Kerry is not going to talk about radical feminism on the campaign trail. But the radical feminists are a key part of the democratic coalition, and if Kerry is elected he will owe them, and the people he brings to Washington will sympathize with him. The types of feminists who don't believe in due process for rape cases, who support feminist judges who take father's children away in divorce cases and leave the fathers with impovershing child support/alimony, and who would see your romantic troubles as a feminine triumph with females being able to frustrate your man, will have greater acsess to Washington under a Kerry administration.

Also consider the types of judges Kerry would appoint. He would appoint activist feminist judges who would use their judicial powers to legislate from the bench for greater power for women. If Due process is violated in a rape or sexual harrasment case, I don't think any Kerry appointee would correct the error. And don't assume your porn would be safe under a liberal administartion either; Remember Tipper Gore was a huge anti-porn crusader. Feminists oppose porn because they feel it is degrading to women, feminist kerry appointees in the courts and in the regulatory agencies would surely oppose them.

Just remember, a vote for Kerry is a vote for you to become a second class citizen.

[/blatant incendinary rightwing scaremongering]

[Imran Siddiqui]

When did you become a communist, Imran?

When the Lord God Putin came and spoke to me and told me what I should pursue .

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
Here's one...they (the Feds) don't need any legal verification (warrant, etc) to wiretap your house. Privacy has NOTHING AT ALL to do with "restricting the liberty of others" and has everything to do with protecting your own. My phone conversations are my property alone, no one else's except the person on the opposite end, and CERTAINLY NOT a government who has one more tool towards full knowledge of all its citizens at all times.

Ah I see the patriot act only violates our privacy. We want the governement to catch the bad guys without the bother of letting the government actually have information about the bad guys. Great! Why is more ignorance for the government regarded as a good thing? And as for your phone calls being your property I guess that means that the IRS also violates our civil liberties because it steals plenty of property that way. At least when the government 'steals' my phone calls I still get to keep my phone call, whereas when the government steals my paycheck I'm just SOL.

Why in the hell are people so sensitive about the government eavesdropping on them? Are they all that bashful? How much time do you think the government will want to waste eavesdropping on you before it realizes it's wasting it's time and that you're probably not a terrorist? I can hardly believe that any innocent person could believe that it's more important to never encounter eavesdropping than it is to never encounter terrorists.

People seem to think we can win a war on terrorism by caving in to the terrorists (if we stop doing bad things they will all be nice to us because terrorists only make reasonable demands), or they think we can win the war on terrorism by catching the terrorists after their terract and having a jury convict them (because of course terrorists would never resort to untracable attacks like a suicide attack, they aren't that crazy right?) How the ****ing hell are we supposed to win this war if we want to place special blinders on the government and tell it to go 'figure out' who the terrorists are? Do they think this is a game of 20 questions? the terrorists don't want to be found and yet everybody assumes that we will catch every major damaging terrorist plot in advance through lucky guesses and terrorist **** ups.


What the ****ing hell is everybody trying to hide gawdamnit? Why is privacy >>>>>>>> security? Damn I'm sick of this.

[Nubclear]

I'm going to assume thats a troll and won't respond

[Imran Siddiqui]

I'm going to assume thats a troll and won't respond

Me too.. no one can be that dumb or Fascist (these days) can they? Saying we should give up our privacy rights so we can catch some terrorists, what does he think this is, Communist China?

[Nubclear]

中国
美国

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Imran would you please explain which of Americans civil liberties are violated by the Patriot act? This isn't a troll, I just never hear people say anything more than that it will threaten our privacy. Not only is our privacy already a joke what with all the data mining the private sector engages in and the nosy neighboors and the like but it sure as hell doesnt seem like it could qualify as any sort of 'civil liberty' since privacy is all about restricting the liberty of others while adding none to ourselves.

I've posted this a number of times but patriot act opponents never respond.

Privacy is a major civil liberty and saying that it isn't means that you don't understand the first thing about civil liberties. You the right to life is all about restricting the liberty of others to kill, but that doesn't mean that it isn't a 'liberty' that we have.

For an evaluation of how the PATRIOT Act violates our civil rights, chief among them being our privacy:

http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/SafeandFree.cfm?ID=12263&c=206

That is an good critique on the PATRIOT Act's talking away our civil liberties.

Imran that whole damn page is devoted entirely to discussion of surveillance powers granted to the government by the patriot act. How in the hell is it bad for the government to have improved surveillance capabilities. I want the government to leave innocent people alone and jail criminals. How is improved surveillance not an obvious way to better accomplish this? And if privacy is an important civil right then why not cable TV or medical coverage or internet access or whatever the hell else people like to have? what does this make civil rights into if not an arbitrary wish list that has nothing whatsoever to do with basic human rights? I get so sick of people acting as if something must be sacred because they keep saying it is, no matter how self destructive such values may be. Don't people agree that it's important that innocent people not be jailed?