Rugby - Autumn Beckons!

[Caligastia]

Did anyone see Otago get creamed by Canterbury?

The Currie cup game - Blue Bulls v Sharks - was better. It was action packed, but the Sharks had a woeful second half after trailing by one point at the break.

[Tamerlin]

No, I am only looking at Rugby these days.

I had plenty of ideas about a new name for our thread...

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Originally posted by Tamerlin
No, I am only looking at Rugby these days.

You mean crap rugby? The way Toulouse is playing it?

I had plenty of ideas about a new name for our thread...

How about? Rugby - How Appropriate That Toulouse Sounds A Bit Like To Lose!

Reading the text of his press conference it seems VERY likely he knew.

The essence was "no rift with Clive, great respect for him, will succeed in all he does *wherever that might be*"

Didn't ring any alarms at the time but looking back...

Yup. That's what I reckon. The latest reports seem to be a little more vague. That Clive hasn't yet handed in his resignation. I can't imagine any backing down at this stage. And I liked John Connolly's comment re Clive's s***** coaching aspirations: "It's someone with their ego out of control".

Oh, and just for the record, because I know none of us are ashamed of the amount of time we spend nattering about rugby, up until the commencement of this thread, including our wee temporary version of this thread, we have, between us, posted

10, 356

times since we started our dedicated rugby threads!

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Re: Rugby - Autumn Beckons!

Originally posted by Caligastia
Did anyone see Otago get creamed by Canterbury?

The Currie cup game - Blue Bulls v Sharks - was better. It was action packed, but the Sharks had a woeful second half after trailing by one point at the break.

The NPC is on FoxSports here at around midnight. I'm yet to watch a match. I should.

[ravagon]

Mmm. Harkening back to some of the Dally/Clive comments, some of them come as a bit of a surprise:-

[D] I'm unsure whether we have the right structure to allow our players to be successful,"
"The World Cup was a little bit of a one-off."
"Playing internationals while trying to run a domestic competition and the way the season runs until May before some players then have to go on tour are not conducive to career longevity.

I'm not so sure what he's talking about with the structure comment. It seemed to be very successful in the short term but it was never going to be possible to sustain it over a longer period. As I see it they threw a large quantity of cash at it, kept their multi-million-dollar team together for much of the domestic season, club commitments regardless, and worked up (successfully as it turned out) to their WC goal. It wasn't so much a one-off as the end result of a long and fairly well-planned campaign, and, seen as such (ie: the end) it was very successful. I'm not sure they have enough time left to do the same thing again in time for 2007 but, given the same funding, they could certainly begin planning for 2011.
Dally's entirely correct about the domestic/international competition bit, but then that's the same dilemma facing every nation.


[C] "I love football and I go to as many games as I possibly can. I never had that passion for rugby I have for football. I never got into rugby in the same way."
"I was forced into playing rugby, because that's the only game the school played. And I hated it. I ran away a couple of times because of football. I didn't mind being at boarding school. I just hated not playing football."



Burning bridges with a 25Mton thermonuke?
That or he may well be in line for a 'relaxing stress-relief vacation' at a psy..,er, 'secluded resort', after which he'll be back as the national coach with a new 'found' enthusiasm?

That aside though, he's saying all of the right things to get into the soccer world, although I doubt he'd rise to the same heights. He may be taken on as an assistant coach I suppose, with regard to some of his coaching 'techniques', but just how useful would he be?
The soccer world already has more than its fair share of ex-players/coaches without looking to other sports.
When Michael J. went to baseball he did serve for a season as a passable player but was never able to rise to anywhere near the same heights and he was regarded as one of those 'once-in-a-generation' athletes.


Oh and can I say that I'm honoured to have the 10361st post?

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Originally posted by ravagon
Oh and can I say that I'm honoured to have the 10361st post?

Kiwi arithmetic, huh?

While I'm sure Clive genuinely believes everything he's saying about those organisational problems - who in their right mind would disagree? - I think it's all a bit of a smokescreen. He wants out. He knows it's not going to get any better than the WRC win, at least not for quite a while, with pain along the way, and I don't think he's prepared to hack it.

Equally, he's a person whose ego makes him an easy person to dislike. Or even hate. You can be damn sure that, whenever he trips across to s*****, if he does, there will be a poultice of people doing their damndest to stop him getting wherever he wants to go. He, of course, would be blind to that. People with egos such as his usually are.

[Havak]

How about? Rugby - How Appropriate That Toulouse Sounds A Bit Like To Lose!

All those creative juices flowing just to arrive at a chant thrown at them every time they play an English club here. “You are going Toulouse”. I first heard this seven seasons ago. You just can’t get the writers these days?

I can't imagine any backing down at this stage

The delay is over the contract the RFU gave him – I think you will find it entitles him to a nice package even if he walks and the lawyers are fighting it out.

I am glad Connelly agrees with me.

I'm not so sure what he's talking about with the structure comment. It seemed to be very successful in the short term but it was never going to be possible to sustain it over a longer period.

I see your confusion. He was not talking about the structure of Team England at all but rather the structure of our domestic game and the way it interacts with the English side. The national side has been successful – but the clubs have been badly burnt.

I’m not sure why you think it cannot work again – or why it can’t work for 2007. After all the Boks came from absolutely rock bottom this year and still kicked AB butt. That’s sport for you.

And incidentally whilst England have spent more what system is it you believe NZ use? They throw money at the ABs – as much as they can raise from TV money and sponsorship – exactly like England do with our side.

Dally's entirely correct about the domestic/international competition bit, but then that's the same dilemma facing every nation.

No it isn’t – not to the same level at least. Our Premiership players play far more rugby than their NPC equivalents. We have domestic players never picked for the national side who play more first class games a year than any two ABs put together – that is what Dally was referencing. Our season lasts nine months with very few rest weeks – our clubs continue to play when England does - does anywhere else match that? At the end of those nine months the senior side tours like sacrificial lambs to the slaughter and end up with maybe four weeks off before the new season. Who does it help?

Burning bridges with a 25Mton thermonuke?

Strangely enough I have been thinking about that secluded resort for him too.

And yes soccer thrives on b******t so he is playing the right game.

But the man is a former Tigers, England and Lions Centre – are we really to believe he has hated the game he has been involved in for over 30 years? It lacks any credibility at all!

He, of course, would be blind to that. People with egos such as his usually are.

I’m actually quite looking forward to a new era. All the Clive favourites will now need to get in on merit and the door may finally be opened to the youths we have oft discussed.

With Rob Andrew ruling himself out he seems almost bound to get the job. But Nigel Melville (Glaws, formerly Wasps) must have a chance. What a shame Richards blew it with Tigers – 12 months ago he would have been automatic choice. Englands loss is Grenobles gain.

[Havak]

It is all getting very confusing. The BBC is now reporting this:

Woodward is thought to want to remain in charge for the Autumn internationals against Canada, South Africa and Australia and then hand over the reins to his successor in time for the 2005 Six Nations.

His early exit would allow him to concentrate on next summer's Lions tour to New Zealand, which he has been asked to oversee, before completing a switch to football.

But even that chain of events is in doubt after Lions chief executive John Feehan told the London Evening Standard: "If something came up which interfered with (his) ability to do his job with the Lions properly, we would have to consider it.

"Clive's preparation has been second to none to date and we are very happy with what he has put in place. The only thing which could affect his position is if he accepted another position which took up the bulk of his time."

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Originally posted by Havak
It is all getting very confusing. The BBC is now reporting this:

Woodward is thought to want to remain in charge for the Autumn internationals against Canada, South Africa and Australia and then hand over the reins to his successor in time for the 2005 Six Nations.

His early exit would allow him to concentrate on next summer's Lions tour to New Zealand, which he has been asked to oversee, before completing a switch to football.

But even that chain of events is in doubt after Lions chief executive John Feehan told the London Evening Standard: "If something came up which interfered with (his) ability to do his job with the Lions properly, we would have to consider it.

"Clive's preparation has been second to none to date and we are very happy with what he has put in place. The only thing which could affect his position is if he accepted another position which took up the bulk of his time."

It's all getting very bizarre. First, he was reported, leaving the meeting, saying he was quitting. Next, he said he hadn't quit, and that his lawyers were talking to the RFU. I wonder if it was a fiscal/legal thing. If he quit, breaking his contract, his pay out was less. Therfore he couldn't be seen to be quitting. Therefore he retracted his earlier position.

After everything that he's said, I can't imagine the Union wanting him coaching again. Can you?

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Originally posted by Havak
All those creative juices flowing just to arrive at a chant thrown at them every time they play an English club here. “You are going Toulouse”. I first heard this seven seasons ago. You just can’t get the writers these days?

I'll sue the pr*cks for plagiarism.

No it isn’t – not to the same level at least. Our Premiership players play far more rugby than their NPC equivalents.

No one plays as much rugby as the English players.

But the man is a former Tigers, England and Lions Centre – are we really to believe he has hated the game he has been involved in for over 30 years? It lacks any credibility at all!

Clive? Played for Leicester?

With Rob Andrew ruling himself out he seems almost bound to get the job. But Nigel Melville (Glaws, formerly Wasps) must have a chance. What a shame Richards blew it with Tigers – 12 months ago he would have been automatic choice. Englands loss is Grenobles gain.

Someone called Andy Robinson was mentioned as a possibility in this morning's paper. Who's he?

[Havak]

After everything that he's said, I can't imagine the Union wanting him coaching again. Can you?

This may be the key to the bizarreness. The RFU will certainly now want him gone ASAP – but he seems to want to serve a ‘notice’ period (as you say probably pay-off related).

I'll sue the pr*cks for plagiarism.

Address the legal papers to “The Members, Welford Road”.

No one plays as much rugby as the English players.

And that is a problem we must address.

Clive? Played for Leicester?

He certainly did. Have I never mentioned it before?

Someone called Andy Robinson was mentioned as a possibility in this morning's paper. Who's he?

Clive’s deputy. Holds Mitchell’s former job of forwards coach. Nice bloke. Untested as a head coach. Except at Bath where he helmed two table propping seasons before Foley came in (and did the same).

A conservative choice – and perhaps also an unlikely one.

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Originally posted by Havak
He certainly did. Have I never mentioned it before?

You kept it very quiet! I honestly didn't know.

Clive’s deputy. Holds Mitchell’s former job of forwards coach. Nice bloke. Untested as a head coach. Except at Bath where he helmed two table propping seasons before Foley came in (and did the same).

I'm sure M. Foley is itching to do the job! Eddie expressed some disbelief at Clive's plans. After which a journo asked Eddie if he was thinking of challenging Frank Farina - Australian s***** coach - for his job. "Nah, Frank's safe", said Eddie.

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So Clive has gone. Full stop. Final. Appropriate under the circumstances, I'd've thought. He's still in charge of the Lions tour, but reading between the lines of the Lions' boss' comments, I suspect he wouldn't be surprised - or terribly disappointed - if Clive quit that job too. So how long will A. Robinson hold the job? Talk about a poisoned chalice. In the medium term, anyway.

[Havak]

You kept it very quiet! I honestly didn't know.

I cannot imagine why I didn’t shout about it earlier. Except I perhaps didn’t think you needed another stick to beat me with?

"Nah, Frank's safe", said Eddie.

At times one has to like Eddie.

Only Clive Woodward and Rupert Lowe seem to think this is a sensible move. My own take on it is we should grasp the opportunity to clean house from the bottom up.

If Clive takes a job in soccer before the Lions tour expect to hear of his sacking as coach for that (the Irish coach would then step in as Clive pipped him to selection).

So how long will A. Robinson hold the job? Talk about a poisoned chalice. In the medium term, anyway.

My biggest concern with Robinson is that he is damn good forwards coach – and an accomplished training ground man – but I wasn’t kidding about his time at Bath. Andy’s only time as a head coach coincided with two of Bath’s worse seasons ever. I don’t think he is the all rounder and management man needed in a head coach.
Interesting talk on Sky’s Rugby club last night – ignoring the silly praise of Clive and Dally winning the RWC (we all know who really drove that success and he only got mentioned a few times) the pundits seemed to think Dean Richards was the only pedigree candidate – but the bookies have him at 33/1.

The two Sky pundits (Stuart and Dewi) themselves are 100/1 from the job. When asked how they would do they quipped that they would do well be, bringing in a specialist coaching staff included Jonno as motivational coach.

Rob Andrew and Nigel Melville have ruled themselves out (as is traditional if you want a job?) so home grown experienced candidates are thin on the ground. Maybe Deano has a shout. Picking a foreign coach would be controversial – it is against tradition and it would also give the SH unacceptable bragging rights.

So of the top eight sides in the world Eddie is second longest serving coach – second only to Monsieur Laporte. Hard to believe it is less than a year since the RWC and England are effectively in absolute turmoil. You SH lads must be loving it.

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Originally posted by Havak
I cannot imagine why I didn’t shout about it earlier. Except I perhaps didn’t think you needed another stick to beat me with?

Yeah, typical, tell me when it's too late! Although retrospective beating-with-big-sticks can be more perverse, hence more fun ...

At times one has to like Eddie.

Mmmm. A tough task-master is our Eddie, it's turning out. Roger Gould found the going a bit tough, too, apparently.

If Clive takes a job in soccer before the Lions tour expect to hear of his sacking as coach for that (the Irish coach would then step in as Clive pipped him to selection).

Fingers crossed he takes a s***** job. I'm sick of the sight of him. I can't imagine he has too much rugby-supporter sympathy over there? I heard one of his mates on the Rugby board singing his praises. Is anyone else?

I don’t think he is the all rounder and management man needed in a head coach.

They were Clive's strengths, presumably. I was never immensely impressed with his tactical nouse. He was so very very lucky he had J**** around. Presumably Robinson will have the job until he proves he's not up to it? Or is he known to be filling in? I wonder what the "success" criteria will be if the going is tough in November.

Actually, one good thing to come out of this - well, two, because, for me, Clive nicking off is an early Christmas present - will be to see what approach is now taken with the team. Will youth get a go? Will the pain of some losses be worn in the interests of long term gain?

Interesting talk on Sky’s Rugby club last night – ignoring the silly praise of Clive and Dally winning the RWC (we all know who really drove that success and he only got mentioned a few times)

Why is that? Why do so many people like to ignore that J**** carried them to the World Cup on his back?

the pundits seemed to think Dean Richards was the only pedigree candidate – but the bookies have him at 33/1.

Deano can't be out of the equation. He probably stayed where he was one season too long, but his history says he's probably the best available? Or will his one-season-too-many work against him?

So of the top eight sides in the world Eddie is second longest serving coach – second only to Monsieur Laporte. Hard to believe it is less than a year since the RWC and England are effectively in absolute turmoil. You SH lads must be loving it.

I think it's the best thing that's happened to English rugby. Probably, to be honest, since Clive turned up in the first place. I'm sure he brought something to the structure and management of the group. Right man at the right time. They were the best team in the world for a period thanks to mainly solid players, one superstar and one megastar. And he marshalled them. With the megastar the one who was really running the playing show, I suspect that any number of people could have coached the team to the trophy, but that's beside the point. Problem was, he took over a team on the way up. But there was next to no evidence that he had the judgement or temperament to do the really hard job - starting if not from square one, from about square two or three. I never liked him. But his ludicrous behaviour recently is absolutely indicative of what I never liked about him. It surprises me not one jot. Anyway, in summary, providing you find the right replacement, English rugby will be immensely better off in the longer term.