why 6 aug 8.15am deserves silence

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Jaguar
w00t! The mindless banter post! That means that I win!

You don't win a debate by posting mindless banter, sorry.



If my point was truelly lost on you, I'm just saying that following the logic that liberating conquered land is an end which justifies any means, then the invasion of poland was justified. (And I guess the subsequent declaration of war from Britain and France unjustified)


Oh wait, you've already said that you don't care about holding double standards, didn't you? Not much point in arguing then, i guess.

[Jaguar]

Since when did I say that liberating conquered land is an end which justifies any means?


Putting a stop to atrocities such as the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking are ends which justify a lot of means.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui

Instead of 300 bombers dropping incendiaries for 4 hours and creating a firestorm that sucked the oxygen out of people's lungs 20 miles away, we had one bomb from one bomber.

Indeed! You think less people would have died if the bomb not been dropped? Please.

Entirely possible.

Although hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives were lost in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the bombings are often explained away as a "life-saving" measure-American lives. Exactly how many lives saved is, however, up for grabs. (We do know of a few U.S. soldiers who fell between the cracks About a dozen or more American POWs were killed in Hiroshima, a truth that remained hidden for some 30 years.) In defense of the U.S. action, it is usually claimed that the bombs saved lives. The hypothetical body count ranges from 20,000 to "millions." In an August 9, 1945 statement to "the men and women of the Manhattan Project," President Truman declared the hope that "this new weapon will result in saving thousands of American lives."

Fortunately, we are not operating without the benefit of official estimates.

In June 1945, Truman ordered the U.S. military to calculate the cost in American lives for a planned assault on Japan. Consequently, the Joint War Plans Committee prepared a report for the Chiefs of Staff, dated June 15, 1945, thus providing the closest thing anyone has to "accurate": 40,000 U.S. soldiers killed, 150,000 wounded, and 3,500 missing.

"I thought our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives," said General Dwight D. Eisenhower while, not long after the Japanese surrender, New York Times military analyst Hanson Baldwin wrote, "The enemy, in a military sense, was in a hopeless strategic position. Such then, was the situation when we wiped out Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Need we have done it? No one can, of course, be positive, but the answer is almost certainly negative."

link

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by General Ludd


Funny that, I thought the war was started with Hitler reclaiming land conquered by the allies in the first world war. Granted, he got a little overzealous and couldn't stop himself.

Odd that he aimed for territories that weren't part of the German Empire first...

[Jaguar]

What UR posted makes the "life-saving" argument a little more plausible...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

If that's the case, do you not think that this incident, which helped people realize the sheer scale of murder which we are capable of, deserves a moment of recognition?

But people already knew this- starvation in Kharkov, the Bengal Famine, hundreds of thousands dead in WWI- the only difference is the shorter time it took.

'Starvation was widespread, with Soviet civilians forced to eat dogs - until the dog supply ran out and people were forced to turn to rats, crows and birch bark. In the Ukrainian town of Kharkov, which was administered by the German army, 100,000 people died of starvation and disease.'

http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/war/wwtwo/hitler_russia_invasion_03.shtml

More were killed in the Tokyo raids, and the Japanese took a delight in prolonging the murder of Chinese and Filipino civilians.


People use 'bushido' and not being a signatory to the Geneva Convention to excuse Japanese massacres and war crimes, and frankly, that seems to me a double standard.

Had there been a reordering of Japanese society in the same way that occurred in post-war Germany, I doubt many people, knowing the full extent of the atrocities in China, the death marches, the murder of Allied soldiers, the routine instances of cannibalism, the rape of comfort women, the germ warfare experiments on prisoners and civilians, would have such a benign view of Japan.

My partner's father knew one of the observers, Leonard Cheshire, and even though he was a compassionate committed Christian, Cheshire still thought that the dropping of the bomb was justified.

There are many ex-servicemen and women in Australia who still find it difficult to forgive the Japanese for the tortures and atrocities inflicted on them- and the lack of remorse, or understanding.

[Nubclear]

By the logic some use in this thread...If indeed the US is saving so many by invading the world, then the September 11th attacks shouldn't be remembered and there should be no moment of silence for the victims - after all, because of it millions have been liberated and saved from death! Had it not happend, these people would still be suffering and being slaughtered

It kind of changes the way you look at things when the situation is applied to YOUR people, doesnt it?

[sprucemoose3311]

the "rape of nanjing" ... thats actually a very big understatement

[monkspider]

You are wrong Jag, Everytime you play Axis and Allies, you help the Germans win in an alternate reality. So who really is on teh right side here?

[Jaguar]

Not true. I enjoy playing as England.

[Joseph]

My brother was in northern PI. They were told to board the ships and they did. After sailing for two days, the ships were told to go back to the PI. Three or four days later they were told to board the ships again. This time they were at sea for 1 1/2 days and then again the ships were told to return to the PI, and when they landed there, they were told that a new weapon had just been dropped on Japan and the war would be over in a few days.

My brother is still alive today and is 78 years old. Because of the Bomb I can still talk to him on the phone. If they did not drop the bomb like some of you think that they should not have dropped it, my brother made not be here for me to talk to him. He would have died when I was just 16 months old.

The bomb save his life and the lives of many thousands other.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Zero
eh, **** everyone hooray nazis

Once you stop caring about whats right things just get much simpler...

It must suck to be you -- and that is sad when I think about that.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by molly bloom


There are many ex-servicemen and women in Australia who still find it difficult to forgive the Japanese for the tortures and atrocities inflicted on them- and the lack of remorse, or understanding.

And as far as I know, Japan has not done nearly enough when compared to Germany, in dealing with its own historical atrocities.


Unless that has changed recently, the Japanese just plug their ears, close their eyes and sing, "la, la, la, la."

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by SnowFire
The Emperor probably should have been tried as a war criminal if all we care about is justice, and then we'd have had the full picture. However, I must admit that pragmatically, getting the Emperor on our side had certain benefits.

Yes. A lot of people, including old Brit and Aussie war vets, not to mention just about everybody in Japan occupied territories, argue that Hirohito should have been tried as a Clasa A war criminal.

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Jaguar
Since when did I say that liberating conquered land is an end which justifies any means?


Putting a stop to atrocities such as the Holocaust and the Rape of Nanking are ends which justify a lot of means.

You where talking about things like "illegal occupation"


But anyways, "the end justifies the means" is the same thinking the otherside uses when commiting their atrocities - it's a rationalization that can justify pretty much anything.

Hell, the Nazis turned a defeated and impoverished germany into a prosperous, united, and stable superpower. Surely the actions of the Nazis where justified for the positive results they brought to Germany?

Of course they aren't - their actions involve the wanton slaughter of innocents. Oh wait, but so did ours. But that doesn't matter, because we where trying to stop the other side from their slaughter, right?